Training and J2E: We have to go through training again!

[Eagle92]

Saw this in the Training Updates from National

 

But to be able to wear the trained patch, and for the unit to qualify under the unit Journey to Excellence (JTE) standards, trained means that they have taken the current training set for their position.

 

Why the difference?

 

The BSA has long believed that a tenured leader does not need to take basic training every time there is a new course - because the assumption is through supplemental training, roundtables, Scouting magazine, and participation in activities, they stay up to date with the current methods and practices of the program. We know this is not always the case.

 

There may be a challenge getting tenured leaders to take the time to take a new course. In most cases these leaders can be excellent resources for the training committee to put on Specifics or an outdoor skills course. (Be sure to give them credit for taking the course when they do!) But the hope is that leaders will take - or teach - the latest course to be sure that they have the up-to-date information related to their role.

 

At our October committee meeting we took some steps to help make the criteria for being trained in ScoutNET, for earning the trained patch, and the unit JTE match. More on that in the next issue of Training Times.

 

For the full article:

http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx

 

[BadenP]

 

 

And it is idiocy like this from the leaders at National that makes me so grateful every day that I am in Venturing instead of the every declining pedantic Boy Scout program.

[Eagle92]

BP,

 

This is for ALL programs; Boy Scout, Sea Scout, Cub Scout, and Venturing.

[Scoutfish]

I'd say that even though it covers all programs, it sounds like it was meant more towards Cub Scouts as the training for a Tiger Den Leader, Cub Scout Den Leader and Webelos Den leader is different.

 

THis would keep a DL from taking Tiger Training and using that to foat all the way to 2nd year Webelos Den Leader.

 

And in that regard, I'd say it'sa great idea.

 

Now, not having been a Boy Scout leader of any type, I assume that once you have the training, it pretty much stays the same for your relative position? And is it like Cub Scouts where the ASM will take the same training as the SM?

 

If soi, the only time you would have to retrian is for YPT or if the program changs...in which case, taking the training again is not only a great idea, but should be looked forward to by all unit leaders to ensure the program in that unit isn't lacking, off or non-conforming to what the rest of BSA is doing.

[BadenP]

E92

 

Like Scoutfish said very little, except YPT has any bearing to Venturing which already has its own YPT especially for its unique program. This is mainly for Cubs and Boy Scouts and is still total lunacy. Besides our crew doesnt wear patches on its uniforms.

[Twocubdad]

E92's clip didn't do justice to the level of gobbledigook in the full article:

 

A Scouter is considered trained for his or her position in the BSAs ScoutNET system when they have completed a prescribed course, or sequence of courses. This could be the current course set, or even a course or courses that they took in the past. For example, Scoutmastership Fundamentals if they took it back when it was the current basic training.

 

But to be able to wear the trained patch, and for the unit to qualify under the unit Journey to Excellence (JTE) standards, trained means that they have taken the current training set for their position.

 

Huh?

 

Then as the portion of the article E92 posted says -- in a very, very round-about way -- that they're dumping the principle that once you're trained to a position and stay in that position even if a new training course is released.

 

Actually, to fully comprehend the sillyness, you have to read the whole newsletter. There's another article that they're developing new standards for "testing out" of certain courses, like Outdoor Leadership Skills. Question: if an Eagle Scout, or an Army Ranger, or anyone with the needed outdoor skills can potentially test out of Outdoor Leadership Skills, why does a leader who has been in the trenches doing the job for YEARS have to retake the class?

 

Gotta say, when it comes down that I have to retake all my training just because they decided rewrite the syllabus, may very well be the thing that pushes me out.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Fish and BP,

 

2Cub hits it better than I can explain. And when it was mentioned tonite at RT, several folks commented if they had to redo all the training they have done over the years, they'd resign.

 

To better explain I'll give a few examples. You have a CS leader who took the old day long CS Leader Basic Training, which has been replaced by individual TCDL, CSDL, WDL, CM, and CC Specific courses. They attend RTs, do various jobs for the district etc etc and are active and keep up with all the current information. Under this new policy A) they would no longer be considered "trained" eligible to wear the trained strip until they took the new courses for their current position, and B) They would not meet BRONZE level criteria for JTE because they have not taken the new courses, let alone Gold and Silver.

 

Or take the long time SM who completed SM Fundamentals back in the day, which was separated into 3 different components: This is Scouting, SM Specific, and IOLS. Again until he took those three courses.A) they would no longer be considered "trained" eligible to wear the trained strip until they took the new courses for their current position, and B) They would not meet BRONZE level criteria for JTE because they have not taken the new courses, let alone Gold and Silver.

 

Now I admit I am not as up to date with any changes to Venturing training since 1998. But say you had an advisor whose crew was originally an Explorer post, and he did Explorer Leader Basic prior to the conversion and was grandfathered (I know there is some debate on that But I am taking the former national director's word on this one) But again until he took those three courses, A) they would no longer be considered "trained" eligible to wear the trained strip until they took the new courses for their current position, and B) They would not meet BRONZE level criteria for JTE because they have not taken the new courses, let alone Gold and Silver.

 

OR let get a even more comical example.

 

Under this new policy even if you took your latest Leader Specific Training, if you have not done "This is Scouting," but did the older course that it replaced, you are no longer eligible for the trained strip b/c that is the new requirement.

 

EDITED: Whenever the requirements for the trained strip change, you have to meet those. And teh trained strip requirements will be in JTE

 

ALSO I just realized that this affects youth as well. If your youth haven't attended ILST or Den Chief Training for Scouts, and Venturers attended Crew officer orientation and ILSC, they no longer qualify. But at least venturers can still wear the VLST strip.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[FScouter]

Seems clear enough. If the UNIT is to earn the Journey to Excellence award, the leaders of the unit must have CURRENT training. If not, nothing that says leaders can't still be leaders; leaders trained under previous standards are still considered trained; nobody need quit.

 

If the unit wants the JTE designation, then meet the standards for that new designation and take the CURRENT training. Simple.

[bnelon44]

> If the unit wants the JTE designation, then meet the standards for that new designation and take the CURRENT training. Simple.

 

Under these rules if the Scouter wants to continue to wear the Trained patch, they have to take the current training as well. At least that is how I understand it.

[Eagle92]

FScouter,

 

While you are correct, Bnelon is also correct in that it affects teh trained strip as well. In order to continue to wear it, you must meet the CURRENT requirements (caps for emphasis).

 

As I see it, this will not only affect old timers like myself, but can also affect newer leaders who have not taken "This is Scouting," taking the older online intro course from 2 years ago(sorry forgot its name)instead. Also it could potentially affect our youth leaders. If Youth leaders in a troop hadn't taken ILST yet, taking the previous course, they are no longer "trained" and entitled to wear the strip. Nor would Venturers wear the trained strip who had taken VLST and not the new ILST. Grant you, the venturers with the old course can still wear the VLST strips.

 

Good news is this, this is the same group that stated they would merge IOLS and WeLOT into one course, and have now changed their mind. I bet if a lot of scouters raised a stink, or if the JTE results are not there b/c of this requirement to have scouters redo basic training every time it changes to qualify, it may change.

 

I can only hope.

[BadenP]

Eagle92

 

All of the adults and youth officers in our crew have training way above and beyond what the BSA has to offer. In my own council, at their request, our crew's adults do almost all the outdoor skills training, and all of the advanced outdoor skills training.

 

This JTE nonsense is just another National desk jockey policy written by someone trying to insure his job security and is totally out of touch with scouting in the field. The fact that they have a new PATCH as an inducement to repeat the same old stuff is just laughable.I feel sorry for the new leaders and the guilible current leaders who get sucked into this chasm of chaos and confusion from National, all because of a new patch, lol.

[hicountry]

Spot on Baden P, we opted out of the JTE, formerly quality unit, formerly Centenial unit carrot and stick game a few years ago. As I assumed, the devil in the details about JTE are coming out and it appears to be developing into a clueless, useless game that as you put it, is out of touch with Scouting in the field.

 

I too am amazed they manage to sucker in many units with such poor incentives as a patch and a certificate.....big deal. Somehow I managed to be a SM for 5 years without a trained patch as I never took IOLS and we ran very well and I never missed a beat nor did I stay awake nights over the lack of that patch. All of the adult volunteers in our troop were actually a little happier once we ditched playing the game, the paperwork and hassle regarding JTE and it's prior versions while we continued to run a very good program.

 

Apparently Denver Area Council is pressuring SM's to get all training now or not being able to recharter with their troop come February. I retired as SM a year ago, but am still a Committee Member with our troop, our new SM, who had already been Cubmaster for 4 years with all current training there, plus most of the BS training and 20 years as a camping and whitewater guide is missing this weekend's troop campout to have to take IOLS...a total waste of his time.

 

Our troop long ago discussed the mandatory full training that may be coming and decided that....on paper anyway.....the SM on the charter would be someone who had all the training and everyone else registers as Committee members regardless of the uniform and patch they wear or the job they perform. If BSA wants to escalate beyond that there will be a registered SM and a very few committee members and a lot of "Involved and helpful Parents"...not regestered but with YPT.

 

If they want to play hardball beyond that they can probably deal with a disovled unit with no one registering for anything.

 

I've mentioned before, I have been active on the local fire department for almost a decade, sometimes changes come to Firefighter One, or Hazmat OPS or First Responder since I was certified, but since I am active on calls and department training I stay reasonably up to date and don't have to retrain on what I already trained and have been doing for years....in a sometimes life and death situation. So why is it that BSA feels the need to retrain people on how to pitch a tent and the like after they have been experienced and doing it for a long time ?

[Scoutfish]

"but since I am active on calls and department training I stay reasonably up to date and don't have to retrain on what I already trained and have been doing for years...."

 

The key phrase here is "I stay reasonably up to date and don't have to retrain "

 

I was also a certified Level III firefighter, certified in Haz-Mat, Wildfire suppresion, I held my CEVO card ( Certified Emergency Vehicl OIperations Certified) . I was a Certified EMT-I, and certified by Fla Public Safety as a Level III water Rescue Tech.

 

Thing was, in my state, to maintain your certifications, you had to do what we called "Continueing Education Training" or "in Squad Training" depending on which agency regulated it( dept of Insurance or Office Of Emergency Medical Services ( under Dept of Environment- Health and Human Services)).

 

During all those years, how many times did they change the way you treat burn vitems, CPR, approaching house fires, ventilating a house, which way your guys entered a structure or what gear they wore?

 

How many times did SOP's adjust or change?

 

You can no loonger ride on the back of a fire truck, SCBA'a must now be possitive pressure at all times and no longer allow "don" switches or settings.

 

Cpr Changes as much as the tide does.

 

Used to, you would walk up to a house after riding on the back of a fire truck, break a window and just start spraying water. Not anymore. Now you do a thorough check, vetilate the roof, put a positive pressue on the house with afan, and push thefire out instead of futher in.

 

BLEVEm, Backdraft, Fire Tetrahedron. All fairly new stuff in the long run.

 

Change happens all the time. Thing is, you just didn't notice it because it came at you at a rate of what? ...3 hours a month instead of the entire 246 hour class.

 

 

And the thing with BSA traing..well yeah, it sucks having to take new training that might replace old outdated training. It might suck to be at the top of your game instead of using "it always worked before" training.

 

And besides, this is for JTE, not keeping yourself on the roster at recharter.

 

As for the trained strip..what's all the ego about? Those who hate anything new since 1970 should be the same people who swear wearing that patch is just an ego trip anyways. Just like wearing a bunch of those dumb award knots!

 

Point is: As leaders, everybody shouldmwant to keep on top of all new training.

 

And I don't know about any of you...but I didn't have to be trained on how to set up my tent...I was smart enough to do it without being trained! ( that part was humor!)

[BadenP]

scoutfish

 

you missed the point entirely, we were not talking about cpr or first aid training for leaders, however neither of these are done by the BSA so your argument is moot. At least in my crew we have three instructors for first aid and cpr, one is even an MD. So you can retract your snide comments to hicountry.

 

This is a discussion on BSA basic and outdoor training courses, read the OP, and the ludicrous proposal by National to get yet another patch. JTE should be renamed for what it truly is Journey to Extinction of the cub and boy scout programs.

[Scoutfish]

Baden,

 

No, you missed the point, he tried to use firefighting as an example as to why having to retake training was a waste..except, that is wrong. As a person who was extensively involved in firefighting, I KNOW how the training worked.

 

Instead of taking a class over again in a couple years, you kept up training and practice on a monthly basis. During that time, they doles out the changes as they happned. A little change here, a little change there.

 

Thing is, nobody noticed because it happened on a small scale. You didn't take the entire class over, but the individula things did change.

 

Now, if BSA decided to make RT count as continuing training, and just brought up the individual changes here and there...then his example would work.

 

Now Baden, how much firefighter traing experience do you have? Cause you WOULD SEE why I did indeed get the point. Besides, I didn't bring up the firefighting example to start with, I just replied back to it.

 

And the same thing applies to BSA and any other organazation that requires training. Nobody is saying you have to have the training. Nobody is saying you will get kicked out. They are just saying that in order to wear a "trained" patch, you shouyld have the proper training...which is current training, not old, out of date, or invalid and potentially wrong training.

 

The commet about the patch itself is what really gets me> In the uniform forums, anybody who likes tio wear the knots they earned are chastized for being egotistical bling waerer and accuses of only wanting to pat themselves on the back. Commenst are thrown out left and right about why a patch actually means nothing unless you want to attract attention and has nothing to do with the program, how great it is or what the boys get out of it......

 

Then I read how some units will flat out quit if a patch is taken away, and the same people who hate knots and any other bling are jumping all over that bandwagon.

 

So, it's not about wearing any patches that are earned, it's just about wearing "certain" patches that "certain" people earn?

 

And unlike your customary attitude, my comments were not snide to hicountry, they were just technical.Not that you should be accusing anybody of being snide. That would be the pot calling the kettle black.