Meaningful Training vs Checking Boxes

[Twocubdad]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't IOLS supposed to be the equivalent of completing the T-2-1 requirements? We're not exactly talking Marine Corps Crucible, here.

 

During my IOLS my patrol included four Eagle Scouts and a retired Green Beret captain. Some dweeb trainer wanders into our camp to teach us square knots and bowlines. We ended up teaching him rope tricks and fancy climbing knots. The whole weekend was like that. We had a good time and made light of how grossly over qualified we were, but could have easily spent the weekend miserable and complaining about wasting our time.

 

 

When it comes to requiring re-training of existing leaders whenever a new syllabus is issueed, why doesn't the training team establish a policy that every new syllabus will have a corresponding recertification course for existing leaders? If nothing else, isn't that a more appropriate use of training resources? Think about it. If every Webelos den leader, Scoutmaster and assistant has to retake IOLS, that's an incredible waste of resources and volunteer time.

 

If retraining us dinosaurs is such a problem, why isn't there a system of annual updates -- a couple hours or an online course outlining changes to the program or best practices -- not a whole friggin' weekend. Or they could do monthly meetings where new informations is shared -- gee, there's an idea. It could replace the current monthly coffee klatch where the Good Ol' Boys strut their feathers.

 

National training folks should spend a little more time trying to meet the real training needs of existing leaders. I don't doubt there is a need. But what rational organization keeps their experience people updated by forcing them to retake introductory training.

 

 

(Sorry, seems we have two threads going on the same topic.)

 

 

[Eagle92]

Maybe national should revamp how Round Tables are conducted, as that is where new info is suppose to be relayed. If it is not happening there, and it sound as if that is the case, then ROUND TABLES are the problem.

[resqman]

"I have a sneaking feeling I am being put on the path to chase a Trained patch, not something that would be helpful to our troop and the boys. Yes, I do have all the other required training plus a bunch more."

 

Putting all leaders on a path to chase a Trained patch is a bad thing?

 

I have taught IOLS several times. 1/3 of the students have the deer in the headlights look the whole weekend. Too much material, too little time. They are overwhelmed with the outdoors skills and the patrol method all at once. All new to them. Very worthwhile for them and the scouts they serve.

 

1/4 could easily be on the other side presenting the material. They are there to get the Check Mark. It also shows the new volunteers that just because you have experience, you still need to participate. It also stresses the importance of teaching, presenting, doing things the BSA way first and foremost. Military methods and scouts methods vary widely. The two programs have very different goals, equipment and funding. What works in one may not be appropriate for the other.

 

Every scout deserves a trained leader. If that means some leaders will have to sit thru a class to confirm they know the BSA way, I see that as a small price to pay. If your troop cannot run without one leader for one weekend, then your program is suffering from lack of leadership and needs more trained leaders.

[Eagle92]

Resq,

 

So you are in favor of having expereinced, and by national's new definition, previously trained leaders go through stuff all over again?

 

Again I don't mind training, I'm in favor of it. But when you got folks who have been doing this 5,10, 30 years and keep current with new info via RTs, UoS, etc being told they are no longer trained I do have a problem.

 

Now I've helped with training in the past, and will be talking to district committee about IOLS in the next few months. And yes national is encouraging folks who train to put their name on the rooster so they get credit for the new classes. But not everyone has the time to do that.

 

And there are units that are struggling. Heck one troop I knew about lost an ASM, and couldn't go camping for about 2 months until the new scouts arrived and the new leaders could go camping.

[CricketEagle]

Resq,

 

Some perspective here: This is not a sob story. I do this gladly for my own sons and others. You and others may the luxury of more time than I have.

 

Situation is that other leaders have "almost" stepped down. So I and a "1" other other adult have had to step in much sooner than we expected in order just get the boys out in the woods.

 

My number one goal here is to keep the boy's program going, "SAFELY". Hopefully, while still getting the quality part of it done.

 

As to my background on T-2-1 skills, I used to be a outdoors/pioneering councilor/instructor decades ago at another councils camp. I got all my patches years ago and am really am not concerned with more. Heck, I even have done things like run the basic scout skills stations at klondikes derbys (knots, fire making, etc, etc). Okay, I admit sometimes the new backpacking stoves give me fits, but I suspect that I am fairly solid at my basic scout skills.

 

And yes, just this week I watched a series gentlemen with ASM patches struggle with tying knots....so I really understand your point.

 

I took a quick glance back at my calendar, I am closer to having spent 40 days and nights.

 

The last TWO times my council scheduled IOLS training...I could have gone.....BUT only if I CANCELED a pack/den or troop event. How would that be?

 

If you look at E92's comment, I really feel for the guy and troop he is writing about. There are a lot of people in the same situation.

 

 

At some point, adding more and more requirements drives adults away. Even through it is a Boy led program, they still need us to tag along.

 

I know of many other leaders in similiar situations, none of us are asking for an "OUT" on being qualified, just asking for consideration that there may be a different route to proving that statement.

 

[Basementdweller]

Well ya have other ASM's take the time and get it over with. I understand busy schedules, my schedule is booked till christmas......Food for scouting tomorrow, Popcorn sale sunday at the church, LNT master educator course next week. the weekend leading up to thxgiving Pack hike. The friday after thanksgiving the older scouts are going backpacking, so I am off to doing that.

 

 

I did it. Had a lot of fun doing it.......The guys in my patrol were a blast.....MUCH MORE FUN than woodscab. the skill I use in scouting, basically just polished them up a bit.

[Jay K]

That's exactly it, Basementdweller.

"My" patrol ( I was the PL) was a blast at OLS. The CD gave each patrol a bead when we answered a question correctly, or beat the other patrols at something. At the end, my guys put our big haul of beads on a string and said "Here! wear this, and when anybody asks, tell them what a loud-mouth know-it-all you are!" I wear it with pride, and anyone asks, I tell them: "my OLS patrol told me that when anyone asks, it's because I'm a Loud Mouth Know It All. I try to instill that spirit when I instruct IOLS.

Get your Wood Bagel Certificate (and beads.)

[bnelon44]

The BSA Volunteer Training Team has a Facebook page that they monitor. I would suggest making suggestions for improvemen there.

[resqman]

If your troop cannot run without one leader for one weekend, then your program is suffering from lack of adult leadership and needs more trained leaders.

 

I did not say you were not busy or dedicated enough. I said your unit does not have enough leaders if the loss of one leader for one weekend cancels events.

 

I would not be happy if I am forced to take all 4 required SM trainings again. I agree that if the trainings expire, then there should be refresher courses or continuing education offered instead of requiring leaders to take the entire course over. Or better yet, advanced training so that there is progression of skills. A quick covering of the newly mandated ideas of the week to satisfy the newly revised national version of whatever and on with the training.

[jrush]

resqman,

 

The point about outdoot leader isn't to teach adults how to run a weekend campout...the SPL and PLs run the weekend campout. You just need adults to check the YP block and drive them there.

 

Outdoor leader is to introduce adults to the "current Boy Scout standard", so the adults know "what right looks like" when Bill the TG/trainer/PL/etc is teaching a class on campsite selection or orienteering or whatever to a passel of bright-eyed tenderfeets.

[Eagle92]

Jrush,

 

A little more than what looks right on a camping trip. It also insures that the adults are not a hindrance to the Scouts. Kinda sad when some adults cannot even set up a tent, and a patrol volunteers to help. Seen that 1 time.

[ouxouiga4ever]

I am District Training Chair and the CD for all of our rural councils IOLS and BALOO courses. I recently put on a IOLS where every participant could have staffed. One participant had over 30 years Scouting, many over 10 years. Most thought it was going to be boring just like what ya'll have discussed and many had an attitude that they were just there to check the box. What made the difference, as any good trainer worth their salt will tell you is adapt and overcome. Like many military personnel know you have to assess the situation and go from there. We saw what and who we were teaching and adjusted to the participants. By the end even the 30 year veteran said he had a blast and learned a few things!

Everyone's time is valuable to them. As trainers or people who are pro-training, it is our jobs to make it worth there time. No, I will not teach you how to tie a square not if you all ready know how to, but we can teach you other knots and discuss possible knot programs used in units that may help or benefit your unit.

Testing out can be a slippery slope b/c the program is constantly changing. The one thing we may teach in a course that is new to a veteran leader may be the one thing that they should really know and would not get if i just tested you to make sure you knew how to start a fire correctly.

[ouxouiga4ever]

I am District Training Chair and the CD for all of our rural councils IOLS and BALOO courses. I recently put on a IOLS where every participant could have staffed. One participant had over 30 years Scouting, many over 10 years. Most thought it was going to be boring just like what ya'll have discussed and many had an attitude that they were just there to check the box. What made the difference, as any good trainer worth their salt will tell you is adapt and overcome. Like many military personnel know you have to assess the situation and go from there. We saw what and who we were teaching and adjusted to the participants. By the end even the 30 year veteran said he had a blast and learned a few things!

Everyone's time is valuable to them. As trainers or people who are pro-training, it is our jobs to make it worth there time. No, I will not teach you how to tie a square not if you all ready know how to, but we can teach you other knots and discuss possible knot programs used in units that may help or benefit your unit.

Testing out can be a slippery slope b/c the program is constantly changing. The one thing we may teach in a course that is new to a veteran leader may be the one thing that they should really know and would not get if i just tested you to make sure you knew how to start a fire correctly.

[JoeBob]

Does anyone have an insight as to why National is requiring all leaders to get 're-trained'?

 

1- The fees for training aren't high enough for Training to be an income stream, so you can't 'follow the money'.

 

2- Is there a National Training Syllabus Writing Department that needs to be kept busy?

 

3- Are they requiring veteran Scouters to attend training as a substitute for proofreading?

 

4- Is the 'BSA Way' changing so rapidly that they need to re-write it all every 4 or 5 years?

 

5- Are the majority of leaders new to their positions and really need training, because National finally ran off all the old farts by making us get re-trained, again?

 

6- Is it National's goal to get rid of the old farts and start over with young soccer player types who aren't so critical?

 

Just womdering...

[Eagle92]

Joe,

 

Good question. From my understanding of the update,It appears that the"continuing education" course of Scouting, better know as Round Tables, is not working out as it is suppose to. Instead of trained leaders getting updates on new policies, procedures, and what not, either the leaders are not attending, or RTs are not workgin as they are suppose to work.

 

So it appears that instead of fixing the RT problem they want to mandate everyone goign through basic training again.