Selecting a troop; what criteria to look for

[imascouter]

We have been in Cub Scouting since tigers. Now that we are finishing up the Webelos 2 year we have just moved to a new state. We are getting very close to the time that we have to select a troop that we will join. When we first got here, we visited three of the troops in the area. We got some first impressions right away based on their reception of us, how many boys in attendance, how many adults in uniform, and what percentage of the troop meeting was boy-lead. I liked the idea that our visits were usually last minute things... so these were not "special" troop meetings for visiting dens of Webelos.

 

We have a favorite troop for the moment and have joined a pack that typically feeds to it. I had a conversation with the new Webelos leader about the troops we visited and it got him to thinking it was time for his den to do some visits. We are now scheduled to visit 2 troops in the next 2 weeks, and at least one more later.

 

Just lately I have been reading some of the message boards here and there was a thread about JLT. The thread dealt with new ways to present the same-old-material. But each of the posters mentioned how often they do JLT, what importance they assign to it, and it got me to thinking.... how much a troop places emphasis in training boys to be leaders - then letting them exercise those lessons in the troop... maybe this is really the "gauge" that would best indicate a "good" troop!? Troops with boys who have been taught excellent leadership skills and use those skills to direct the troop.... probably ALSO have a very good, full, useful, program.

 

What are your thoughts about this? What would be on your short list of things to look for in a perspective troop? I am sure that none of you have time to type up a complete dissertation. Your top four basic things I should watch for would be appreciated.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

A few things to check out

 

Ask if they have an activity calender, check out the activities listed, is your son interested in the trips. Ask to see a few calenders from years past, how active is the troop, is it what your son wants to do.

 

Does the troop have an attendance policy, that is, is there a set number of meetings/activities that have to be attended? Not all troops have these (they are against BSA policy, but thats not always followed) and if your son has other committments, this will be important.

 

Does your son have friends whose brothers are in any troops, do the kids like the troop, are the brothers the kind of kids you want your son around?

 

Does the Scoutmaster have time to talk to you, ask him if hes trained, ask how many of the leaders/committee are trained.

 

I am sure you will get plenty more advice, this is to get you started

 

 

[ozemu]

Looking at OGE's list made me think of two things that can have an enormous impact on the historical data's ability to indicate the future:

 

are the adults who guided the previous success going to remain for the next year or three?

 

same question for the boys who are leading the Troop.

 

Two other elements to rate:

 

Is the Troop financially intelligent?

 

Can your son 'see' himself going outdoors with the Troop - which does he talk about the most after your visits?

 

good luck

[yarrow]

I called all the SMs before visiting all of 4 troops within reasonable driving range and asked lots of questions. I had all the troops in a table which I presented to my Webelo den at the time and suggested they visit all of them and use the information that I had ferreted out as well.

 

I was looking for a large troop with lots of activity options and where I would not have to lead every activity. I was also looking for an SM that everyone was happy with and that had a young boy so there wouldn't be a change over right after we joined. I was looking for a resonable percentage of Eagles, not too high, not too low. Lots of parents at the meetings (not running it, just involved)

 

My boy was looking for fun and didn't want to leave his "buddies". The local troop was 6-10 boys. Way too small for my expectations. His buddies didn't do anything with him in school or after, just showed up Monday nights for Scouts, i.e. not too close friends.

 

I placed him in a troop that was "gentle". Not too agressive on badges, camping, but did a monthly camp. The SM was super with young boys. At the meeting I witnessed a boy led but NOT chaotic meeting. The boys were well behaved and attentive and the SM steered a bit if the SPL got too off track. He also had a neat SM moment at the end involving an ethical issue. The meeting had a break out after the business and he did some orienteering with some older boys and an ASM.

 

My boy was upset at the choice at first because he felt he was abandoning his "friends" (he was the only kid to cross over into a different troop), but loved it by summer. The local troop is forever having personality disputes and periodically blows up.

 

One of the other troops we visited managed to partially burn down their charter org.s building, lose all the equipment and get thrown out. They tended to do non-scout site camps and never wore uniforms. They recently disolved. Another we visited is still going strong, but they seemed way too agressive for my, rather quiet, boy. They have huge fundraisers, matching troop tents, full uniform, agressive advancement and several camps a month. Perfect fit for my over achiever older daughter, but not my son.

 

There are also 2 new troops now formed since we joined and the LDS group. I am willing to drive 20 mile to the troop we joined because it is a good fit for my boy.

[imascouter]

Thank you for your suggestions. I just received these suggestions from a Scouter that I respect:

 

Check to see how effective the Methods are in the troop. 1) Advancement; how are the advancement opportunities in the troop? Are they fun, challenging, and re-enforced in the troop program? 2) Ideals; are the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan and Outdoor Code are part of every meeting? Can the Scouts repeat from memory and are they demonstrating it in their activities. 3) Patrols; are the patrols Scout lead and Adult advised? Is Junior Leader training part of the annual troop calendar? Does the Patrol Leaders Council meet regularly and use the Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leader Handbooks? How involved are the Scouts in the program decision making? 4) Outdoors; does the troop go camping every month? Do they participate in a week-long summer camp experience? What percentage of the Scouts and Adults participate in short-term and long-term camping? Is there a variety of camping locations? Are individual patrols encouraged to camp as patrols? Adult Association; is the adult leadership properly uniformed? Does a large percentage attend the monthly Roundtable? Do the adults guide the Scouts in an Advisory role? Do the adults set a good example? 5) Personal Growth; does the troop schedule service projects as part of its annual calendar plan? Is the Religious Awards program emphasized in the troop program? 6) Leadership Development, is the youth and adult leadership training? Do the youth leadership take part in a week-long Junior Leader Training Conference? Do the adults participate in regular training opportunities? 7) Uniform, are the Scouts and Adult leaders properly uniformed? Do they were it with pride?

 

Some other things to consider are:

1) Does your son feel welcome? Does he feel comfortable enough to make friends at the troop he visits? Do you feel comfortable with the troop adults and are made to feel welcome.

2) Does the troop support the council and district? Does the troop have a good balance between district, council, and troop event participation?

3) Are the advancements handled effectively? Are Scouts recognized as soon as possible after earning advancement? Are Courts of Honor held regularly?

4) How many scouts earn the Eagle rank annually? Do they continue to participate after earning Eagle?

5) Is there an evenly balanced age distribution in the troop?

6) Does the troop support and actively participate in the Order of the Arrow?

 

Troops are like families and have different personalities. They also tend to change from year to year depending on the age groups in the troop, adult participation, and Webelos crossover numbers. .... My last comment is this, whatever troop that your son selecteds must be a place where the opportunities to earn the Eagle rank exist. Scouts enjoy being recognized and without active advancement the scouts will become bored.

[Bob White]

I think the list you got from your scouter friend is very, very good. There are only a few differences in what I would look for.

#3 I would look for patrols that are boy lead and adult trained.

 

#4 does the troop get outdoors every month (it is not required to go camping every month to have a good program, and for a new patrol or troop camping monthly is a real byrden. but there should be an outdoor activity every month.

 

 

In some other things to consider, #4 I would not use an Eagle count as any kind of an indicator of a good scouting program. It is more of a reflection of the individual. A lot of eagles could mean a strong program or a merit badge factory. A few could mean a weak program or a consistently good one. So counting eagles doesn't tell you much.

 

#6 OA is an individual activity for a scout, I would not judge a troop by it.

 

Other than that I think your friend gave you some excellent points to consider.

Good luck in your search

 

BW

[SR540Beaver]

I have a question that I probably already know the answer to. My son is a Webelos 1 right now. Is it too early for me to start checking into troops? I realize he won't move to Webelos 2 until this coming summer and then on to Scouts around Feb. 2004, but is it ever too early to gather info about troops for the future? After all many kids and parents start looking towards colleges early in high school to give themsleves plenty of time for weighing the pros and cons of each school. I don't have a lot of faith in our Pack's organizational skills and don't want to get down to a month or so before the transition and have someone say, "here are 2 troops you might want to check into".

[mk9750]

KWC57,

Not only is it not too early, I think the timing is perfect! Especially if there is more than one troop to consider. Lots of things go into making this choice, as shown above. Few, if any, can be determined accurately with one visit to a troop. One of the biggest, I believe, is chemestry. If your son seems to get along with the boys whith whom he will associate, and with the adults in the troop, I think you're way ahead of the game. And troops have personalities, too. Some troops are very heavily weighted toward outdoor activities, even more than once a month. some are geared toward high venture. some prefer more cerebral activities. None of these are better or worse than the others, but your son's interest in hiking or rapelling, for instance, might mean he should steer away from the less active troops. Some troops do well "advertising" their personality, but some don't. To find out what they are like, more than one visit, and probably more than one outing will be needed to see.

Good luck to you. I had more fun with my oldest son picking a troop when we were in Webelos than almost anything else we've done. Enjoy it!

Mark

[SR540Beaver]

MK,

 

Thanks for the input. We live in Oklahoma City, so there are many many troops to choose from in the metropolitan area. I've already got my eye on one troop where some of my friends became Eagles some 25 years ago. I've looked at their website a number of ties and it professes to use the patrol method and does camping trips every month of the year. Their website is very imformative and explains how they are organized and the methods they use. So far (at least in what they put on their website) they seem to follow a very traditional boy led patrol method. I know not to judge a book by it's cover and that real visits will be needed to make sure it is the real deal. Plus, i plan on us doing the same with a number of troops. The decision will be my son's...with a little valuable input from dear old dad.

[acco40]

I know that this is going to sound very pessimistic, but when looking for a troop, talk to families that have left that troop. Remember, changing troops is a fairly natural occurance so don't be alarmed when you find out the troop has had a few boys go to other troops. However, talk to the boy and his parents about why they left and you may uncover a pattern.

 

Yes, please start looking in the spring while your son still have a year left as a Webelos Cub Scout. Especially if you son plans to cross over in February or before.

[Pack38Scouter]

kwc57,

Webelos 1 is not too early to look at troops, especially if you have several to choose from. The troop meetings themselves do not do the troop any justice. A campout will definitely tell you and your son how much your son will enjoy the troop and how well the patrol method is being run in the troop. If you wait until Webelos 2 year, you will be able to do only one transition campout with one to two troops at most. I got our 20 Webelos 1 to start looking into troops this past March. Now, they are well into their Webelos 2 year, they have visited at least 3-4 local troops with 2-3 more in the plan.

 

imascouter,

 

If you email me, I will send to you what I gave to our Webelos Den Leaders and the Webelos 2 parents as a checklist in MS Word format. The local troops indicated that they will be using it for future Webelos as well. It's two pages long and folks on this board wouldn't like it if I cut and paste that long of a post!

 

YIS

[mk9750]

KWC57,

Sounds like a plan. I say this only half sarcastically, but maybe the first question could be "Who does your website?" If it's a boy, there you go. If it's an adult, might be an indication that boy led patrols is just lip service.

Our troop website was conceived and developed by a boy 4 years ago. He's made Eagle, moved on to college, and the job has been passed on to a number of boys, with varying degrees of sucess (from none to none, really). The guy who started it has been itching to take it back and get it up to date. I can't blame him, it's his baby. But we won't let him do it. As much as we used how terrific the site was when new as a tool, we use how poor it is now to show that the boys do the work and we live with the results. (A new parent in the troop, who is a Computer MB councilor, has agreed to take our webmaster under his wing. It'll get better now, I think. Although we've already had to ask the new guy to guide and teach, not do.)

I know it seems weird, but I like it when our guys fail to meet their own expectations. They sure learn a lot more from it. I admit they don't have nearly the fun, but I think it's a fair trade when they also do quite a bit that works out great. Point is, maybe look at the failures as much as the successes. They might tell you something too.

Mark

[Compass]

I probably can't add much to what has already been said, which is outstanding advice from everyone.

 

Having gone through the experience recently, one observation: be careful about what other adults (leaders and parents) say at the troop meeting at any troops you visit. Every troop we visited (seven in all) had enthusiastic parents and adult leaders that described their troop in a very positive way. This included a troop that had no boy leader elections (the Scoutmaster picked them all), an adult-lead troop, another troop that was in total perpetual disarray (no discernable patrols, apparently for quite a while as told to my son), and the unfriendly troop (no attempt to make my son feel welcome or a part by either boys or adults the entire visit).

 

It was always interesting to compare notes with my son on the way home from visiting a troop. My impressions (I was hanging out with and talking to the adults) and his impressions (at the boy level) sometimes were radically different.

[Pack38Scouter]

Last night 7 of my 2nd year Webelos, their parents, and I visited another troop in another District that's about 7 miles away from the house. This troop has been drawing the scouts from not only our Pack but several other Packs as well. Now I know the reason why. They are about 90 boys strong comparing to 25 and 30 from our two local troops. Comparing to our local troops ... it's like night and day. This troop, if I may dare say, comes close to the ideal troop! Wow!

 

Here is what I observed:

1) We were welcomed! The new Scoutmaster met us and welcomed us. He left and tended to the business at hand while a parent entertained us. The Scoutmaster came back and took the Webelos to the side and welcomed them ... making feel that they are important! He then introduced them to several of the older scouts and then turned them over to the Junior Leaders. The older scouts asked him how should they divide our boys up? The Scoutmaster simply replied, "why don't we let the boys decide what they want to do tonight." They have about 5 distinct patrols and each is doing a different thing last night. So our boys got to do whatever interests them.

 

2) The Scoutmaster and his Assistant Scoutmasters took turn and gave us the breakdown of the Troop the whole 1.5 hour! They didn't do much selling. They didn't have to ... their program speaks for itself! Compare to our local troops ... when we attended their meetings ... I don't think that they were aware that we existed ... kind of hard with 8 Webelos sitting there and have nothing to do with their parents standing there wondering who's in charge.

 

3) The boys ran the meeting ... very organized and very structured. They have distinct Junior Leaderships present. They stood in their patrol and I can actually see who is the SPL, ASPLs, as well as the PLs and the APLs! Each boy is in uniform (not full as in complete with the olive drab pants ... some were in jeans). I did see some horse playing, but then again this is a boy's world! When the scoutmaster gives his scout sign ... the boys quiet down quite quickly and the scout sign did not go up more than 4 time during the 1.5 hours comparing to the other troops where the SPL and ASPLs constantly raising the scout sign the entire evening!

 

4) According to the scoutmasters ... the boys planned their outings. They camp every month. They have high venture for the older boys including camping/hiking in Hawaii, Alaska, California, etc. and this coming year Scottland. They have a great fund drive that subsidizes alot of the costs (the fund drive that net them about $35,000 a year!) We were told that the average out-of-pocket cost of their campout is about $15 - $20 and $100 - $150 for Summer Camp. As for High Venture, it varies and it could run upward of $300 depending the scout's fund raising participation (fair enough).

 

5) From my observation, the boys ran their troop meeting and patrol meetings well enough that I safely assumed that it was pre-planned. I have seen meetings that were run by the "shooting from the hip" method! It was not pretty.

 

6) The boys seemed to have fun. There were not many older boys there last night. We found out that since finals are occuring this week, the Scoutmaster insisted that the older boys stay home (if he wishes) to study for the finals.

 

7) They have a structured program that allows the new to be in a "new scout patrols" and all of them work toward achieving 1st-Class by the end of their 1st year. The new patrol elects their own PL and APL. Each new patrol has a Troop Guide to help them. After that first year, they are then absorbed into the existing patrols.

 

8) Each of the Junior Leaders are sent to the District's week long JL Training.

 

9) They have 100% (or close to it) trained adult leaders.

 

10) They have 40% - 50% adult volunteers. When you register your son, you sign up as a volunteer whether it's a one-timer or a regular.

 

11) During the troop meeting, the adult leaders were there, but I did not see them interjecting or asserting their control over the boys. They basically walked about and kept an eye on things. This was a truly "boy-lead" meeting. The adult leaders did help out ... but did not interfere!

 

I could go on ... but it will be way too long. I would love to have my son attend this troop; however, I feel that if I and the other parents continue to take our boys and resources away from the local troop, then there is no foundation for the local troops. Now that I know exactly what and how it should be done ... may be I can influence changes in the existing troop. Still thinking ... and it will be up to my son!

 

Final note ... before we left the Scoutmaster talked our boys and thanked them individually for making the trip to visit them! Now, that's the way to treat your most important guests!(This message has been edited by Pack38Scouter)

[eagle90]

Sounds like you found Heaven on Earth. Isn't it nice and refreshing to see the program working like it should!

 

I would also look at the adults - ARE THEY HAVING FUN? While it is a boy organization, the adults must enjoy it also. If the boys see the adults are enjoying Scouting, chances are they will too. In our troop the adults socialize quite a bit, with Committee BBQ's and Christmas parties, etc.