Organizing an IOLS for 50 to 100+

[BadenP]

Despite all your good intentions this seems to be a mother/son proposition controlled by just you two without asking/allowing district/council trainers involvement, and crammed down the councils throat. Scouting is a collaberative process bringing in a wide variety of experiences. In this thread I have noticed that it seems to be just MT and MIB in dialogue with virtually no response to the posts of others. MT with all the confusion about scouting you have shown in other threads are you really the right person for this training? Just an observation is all.

 

I remember in a former council of mine we had a pair, married couple, nicknamed the Dominator & Dominatrix. They for a while ran and controlled all the training in their district and much of the council, it was always their way or the highway. This lasted over a year until the new SE saw how many scouters he was losing on both unit and council level so he called them in to a council exec board meeting and dismissed them from all council responsibilities. They sold their home and disappeared from the scouting scene. Some of the volunteers solemnly marked the occassion by calling it DD Day.

[Eagle92]

While in some ways I am very envious, my district is lucky to get 16 folks to IOLS, and it's been run with as few as 2 attending, 50- 100 is HOLY COW!

 

 

Some ideas I've seen work and have thought of.

 

1)get as many staffer as possible. having patrol guides can really make a difference.

 

2)Round robin style training is good. gets folks moving, about, meeting other instructors, etc.

 

3) Use other instructor form other districts. Also utilize older youth, i.e Scouts in venture patrols, and Venturers, especially those working on the Outdoor Bronze. I find it funny that they can teach Cubs, Scouts, and other Venturers skills, but no one thought about teaching new adults skils as part of the advancment requirements.

[moosetracker]

BP - It was not just MIB & MT, CTBailey & I have been bantering back & forth, I think he has some good ideas, but I am worried that both MIB & CTB may be having a few stars in their eyes, and not quite seeing that it will only be successful if we look at the possible problems and then try to find how to find a solution if they happen, rather then think great things and be thrown under the bus when unexpected problems arise..

 

Tonight I went to RoundTable & talked to some of my expirenced District Trainers who are also interested in the idea, again I said only if we can get help with other people in district..

 

OGE commented but somehow erased his whole post without even leaving a residual "edited by..".. But he had some good comment about it could be a disaster, along with BD.. But except for OGE (whose comment vanished, and BD no one but CTB & MIB has commented until you BP.. So I have been responding to mainly CTB & MIB..

 

Some of my comments on this thread made by me..

 

1) my first comment doesn't make any sense because it was to OGE who vanished.. but

a) I am also hoping that our Council Training Chair (CTC) also comes up with other solutions.. (ie.. want council help & advise)

b) The district that had 50 participants thought it was a fabulous turn out and training..So I plan to get suggestions from them also.. (ie. want advise from other districts)

c) If you had to put a minimum number on the course.. Would you do : (question to OGE for a comment on I should limit the course number. ie.. further discussion with someone who posted a comment in the thread (but then deleted it)..

 

2) Responding to CTB..

a) Not yet, our CTC is out of town until around June 22, (ie.. want to get with council on this, but right now can't.)

b) But, I do think my son will need to organize and surround himself with a group of people who have good knowledge in organizing large gatherings to pull this off. (ie.. I do not want this to be a 2 person show WE WOULD NEED HELP)

c) It will be great exposure for him, but I do have some of OGE worries.. (ie. I was listening to what OGE said..)

d) Just remember.. Jamboree, WB, and Air Show.. We are spreading our expirienced scouters throughout our council very thin (ie.. need lots of help, can we get it with all going on?..)

 

commenting to BasemenDweller (and also still a nod to OGE who had a similar view)

a) If we can not do small individual classes, and personalized attention it would be better to downsize..

 

Comment to MIB

a) Just things to think about, and a reason to check out others ideas on the subject, before deciding on any specific way to go. Door is open to ideas and peoples veiwpoints on good ways to handle it at this point... (ie.. keep your mind open to what others are saying at this time, now is a good time to absorb and then figure out the best solutions..

 

BP.. I don't see where I am only talking to MIB and ignoring other peoples comments.. I will agree on thing that does have me worried is this will only be out 3rd IOLS training.. I think I am getting comfortable running a normal size one.. This is a challenge.. (Hmm.. I think I am paying attention to you BP..)

 

Eagle92 - I was thinking about maybe some NYLT staffers, they run their program in the summer so will be free in the Fall.. I will see if any of the District Trainers know of anyone in Venturing their districts working on Bronze, we have no one in our district who has passed in a single advancement in any of our crews in our district..

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

Ask your summer camp directors for the names and contact info of the staffers who run their outdoor skills, nature/ecology and first-year camper programs as well. You may even be able to talk with them face to face while they're working at camp in a few weeks. The directors of those areas will be 18+ and will likely have gone to National Camp School, meaning they're up to speed on BSA policies & practices. They may be off to college or back in the classroom teaching high school in the fall, but you could get a couple of them who are free for a weekend to volunteer.

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

BadenP - I find what you said to be very rude. So far everyone in our district loves the way MT does as a District Training Chairman shes already been awarded for this. We ask every person that comes through our training for ways to improve it. This is NOT a dictator ship we dont not run a my way or the highway training. MT So far has not done much actual training more the setting up of training.and if she were to do training shed make sure it was on a subject she knew very well. We have multiple other people come in and do our trainings for us.and Im not usually the one who sets up the actual courses but rather Im the one that takes charge and becomes the main leader of the training..usually somebody else plans the actual training. So there is no mother and son stuff going on. Thats like saying that a guy cant coach his sons baseball team otherwise it would be a father son proposition and that wouldnt be good.

 

 

MooseTracker- I do listen to ideas for information on how to better the course.but I have an entrepreneurial mind. I am going to give this my all and come up with all ways I can look at it.I already have been doing brainstorming of what wont work as is evident by the fact that we cant have a video cooking without a quiz. Because I have attached myself to the idea I will try and find every possible way to make it work even if I have to get new trainers. I understand if we cant make the classes smaller and more indivualized this program wont work but I see that as a challenge and ready to go for that challenge. I am going to look at specific ideas until I hear a better onethen I may find a way to implement both or chose the better one. I am not blocking out any new ideas but I whole heartedly believe that if done right this could be an awesome training.

 

So dont assume Im not listening to ideas just because I dont implement any of them I may have looked at them and decided on a better way to go. I am not opposed to other peoples opinions and advice and greatly appreciate them but in the end I will make the decisions that I feel will suit the program the best. I already want to implement the advice from our last IOLS Participants.

 

I am not looking at everything thing as if I have stares in my eyes. I thoroughly realize that this will be a difficult training to set up and there will be a lot of problems. But I believe that it can work and as an entrepreneur I will stay optimistic about it. I realize problems will have to be thought of and dealt with before they happen.I will have to come up with some contingency plans. But this is no different than making a business plan or a course of action for a business.

 

People need to look at big picture and then figure out the best way to get there. This is how you start a business and this is how this is gonna have to be handled as well. If we were bill gates deciding computers could be a great thing and starting Microsoft wed run into the naysayers and wed run into a lot of problems and challenges.but by planning and thinking things through we can come out with a great product and a great company(ie. The IOLS Training)

 

 

Shortridge- I appreciate the input and I hadnt thought of that before.Im gonna have to look into that one.

 

[BadenP]

MT & MIB

 

All I said was that it seemed to me from your posts that this training was just a two person dog and pony show from two people who seem to enjoy control. For a group the size you are plannining there should be at least 15-20 instructors which should include other trainers and experienced scouters in your council which is how a well done training ought to be, but you two do not seem to be interested in doing that. Sorry if you find that insulting but it is just the honest truth.

[moosetracker]

BP- I welcome your advice, but I still don't see where in my post I am saying I am only looking for people inside my district, and my normal instructors. ctbailey is from our council but another district and is very interested in joining in.. "Welcome!!"..

 

I want to go to the June 22nd meeting and get some advice and support from other district trainers, and see if they can ask their trainers for people. Also I have a woodbadge meeting tommorrow night and our Council Training Chairs right hand woman will be there, so I can ask her some questions then, as well as see about 3 other District Training Chairs at this meeting.

 

 

I told my normal Trainers who were at roundtable, we will be looking at borrowing some trainers from other districts for this event, they saw it as a resonable request seeing the other districts were not running their own IOLS..

 

The advice you give is sound, I just don't see where I have been displaying that this was not every bit of my intention from the get go. The instructor needs may be as you state, 15-20, but then we could use some troop guides and field organizers..

 

MIB - You have not gotten to know BP well on this board.. He is not rude.. In fact I am quite fond of his crusty, grumpy ways.. BP & I have had our differences in the past, and have ironed them out, and have come to an understanding. But every now and then he still likes to poke a stick at me for old times sake.

[Basementdweller]

Lots of I's and me's in your post moose. You understand their are other scouters that will help if you ask.....right???? Like the food and coolers post. I bet someone has a trailer and troop coolers that could be borrowed.

 

 

I am going to guess that Participation equals pass.

 

 

You also understand that the people you are instructing will be taking our scouts out into the outdoors with the skills you are demonstrating.....notice I said demonstrating.....because there is no way they can learn outdoor skills in a couple of hours on a saturday.

 

I pray that none of leaders you are demonstrating IOLS to are New or inexperienced SM, this training style is completely inadequate for them.

 

An example

 

First aid....the group shows up 10 minutes late because of potty breaks or they got lost.......that means 20 minutes of instruction..... they don't want to be late to the next station because this instructor spent 5 minutes lecturing them about being on time, so they start backing up 5 minutes early....so out of a half an hour of scheduled class time they get 10 minutes of meaningful instruction.

 

 

Hopefully where ever you schedule this has class rooms with doors......Been to a few classes that share a common haul or auditorium it is too loud for learning.

 

Patrol size is the right size for learning

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[OldGreyEagle]

I thought what I posted was way too negative.

 

I commented that having 50-100 people at IOLS, or any training sessions was way too many people and just because you are the only show in town does not mean you have to accomodate everyone in town(or Council)

 

Plan for the number you can handle and cap it at that. If anyone complains be sure to tell them you and MIB would be thrilled to help staff their IOLS course. Don't take on more than you can handle

[ctbailey]

Well, now that we've really stirred the pot...

 

Folks, we all need to remember this is Scouts. Take it easy.

 

Our Council is in the same situation as many are - and ALL the councils next year - in that we will need to ensure all D.C. leaders are trained prior to recharter. Just like every other council in the country, there is a shortage of volunteers. The old adage 10% of the people do 90% of the work is still true today.

 

It is widely understood and accepted that IOLS can be a great experience, or it can be considered a complete waste of time by the participants, all depending on the faculty, facility, and logistics.

 

I'm sure the district training committee in every district in the country is understaffed, and overwhelmed by the concept that every leader will be trained eventually.

 

This is why Moosetracker's post is so timely. The forecasted number of participants is based on the roster, and what ScoutNet is reporting for "trained" leaders. This forecast is just one district of a nine district council, which happens to be 95% of the entire state of New Hampshire. Each district in this council is in a similar boat.

 

That is why I suggested this district event be expanded into a council event. Many of you on this board have pointed out the value of bringing trainers in from other districts. Many of you on this board have pointed out the need to have a rather large staff to effectively train a large number of students.

 

Can a "council" event be properly pulled together in 90 days? Probably not. Not without complete buy-in from the other District's training chairs. This "sandbox" belongs squarely to the District Trainining chairs. Not the commissioners. Not the "Wood Badge" bunch.

 

I agree a facilty with classrooms is essential for good indoor training. OLS and OWL, however, are OUTDOOR training events. These should be taught outside. Weather should only be considered if a life safety situation arises. What better facilty than a flagship council owned property?

 

I guess I am talking myself out of the idea that a "council wide" event is possible. But I still think it would be possible to team up with another District to pool resources.

 

Thanks for listening. I now am stepping off my soap box.

[SSScout]

I have served as instructor at many IOLS, under at least four different Directors/organizers. I have "taught" (facilitated? demonstrated?) Woodtools, Animal&Plant ID, Fire building and safety, Cooking and sanitation, LNT, Scout's Own Faith, and Campfire planning. I've seen Saturday-Sunday types, Friday-Saturday types, Friday eve thru Sunday late afternoon. I've never seen a class bigger than 35, and we have a large District.

 

For such a large group, I would suggest a choice of:

1) Arrange a choice of weekends, give a choice of Friday-Saturday (allows for sunday sabbath folks) and Saturday-Sunday (allows for Friday Sabbath folks). Needs seperate staffs, but often the same good trainers can do several weekends, if you approve. Leads to consistancy in training, yes? Instructors can see all the group at once in a smaller group, but they can still be organized into Patrols and work as such, electing their PL, APL,etc.

2) Divvy the big, one weekend group into three smaller training camps, each with it's own director/SM, and set of instructors. Give each camp a name (not just "1, 2, 3"). Could be on the same property, might even consider some inter-troop competitions.

3) Arrange the whole thing as a Camporee. Divvy up the 100plus as Patrols, let them choose Patrol Names, flags, elect a PL and APL, QMaster, etc. Make sure they all have the chance to organize together (after the Indoor section?) to plan cooking and food. Networking across boundaries! Who can help with what! Acknowledge that some experience will become apparent in the group, but the goal is to learn to do things "the Scout way". Make the official training on the day as a Camporee would have "stations". Each teaching session is a station, the Patrols rotate around them on a schedule, thus each instructor would teach a smaller group multiple times. One BIG campfire in the evening with the Patrols having planned skits and such. The greater PLC meets to coordinate the affair, after learning about fire safety and axe wielding and Campfire planning (PLC?).

 

4) Make sure your training makes sense: Don't have the campfire on Saturday night and have Fire Safety on Sunday afternoon. Teach Campsite choice and preparation while the "boys" are setting up camp, not later.

 

Every problem is a learning opportunity. You definitely have one here. I know from your previous posts that you are up to it.

Good Scouting to you!

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

I by no stretch of the imagination said I was going to be the only one teaching.Ive said from the get go that a lot of trainers are needed.my term I is due to the fact that we always have A event organizer and this time around I am the event organizer. I know I can ask for help and fully plan on doing so. I dont see where it has ever been said that MT or myself have not wanted helpas far as I can tell weve been saying the opposite.that we need to find additional help on top of what we normally use.

 

SS Scout said it perfectly its going to end up as a big training camporee. There will be more than 20 min to first aid as we usually do a 2 day course. Maybe it might be a little better to bump it to a 3 day. So that there is even more timebut in our district none of our individual parts of IOLS are taught in under an hour. And we still end up with extra time on Sunday.

I know a lot of people do 1 day training courses..we do not.and we cannot afford to even if we did with this many people coming.

 

I fully understand that some people will come not knowing about this stuff.which is why we have to teach them..and different instructors have different ways of teaching.

 

I know when I teach I generally have the people in the group teach each other and I am only an observer.unless something needs to be corrected or nobody knows the info. But I want it interactive so that they are engaged in the learning and not bored by a lecture. This also allows them to learn how to teach these things to their Scouters back at the troop level. Not to mention it breaks up the ice and gets everybody to learn each other.

 

We generally have the individual patrols bring all their own equipment. Such as First aide kits and food and ice chests and cook ware.we are willing to help out but this is designed to run as if they were patrols as a part of a troop going on a camp out. I know my troop doesnt bring all the equipment the boys need if they forgot it oh well theyll remember next time. Sometimes you have to learn by your mistakes. We will be giving them a list of what they should be bringing and were willing to help out but its not the instructors jobs to provide everything.

 

We will be doing as much as we can outside due to the nature of the course (intro to OUTDOOR leader skills). But we do make sure there are always some indoor places to go if we should need them.

 

SSScout- I appreciate the optimism even though you have never seen it done this large and your adviceand if I thought you lived anywhere around here id ask you to come and help me out. Not to mention you teach one of the pieces of this course we have a harder time locating people for Plants and animals.

 

[moosetracker]

Yes - Basement - We have no intention of reducing the time of the training, it will not be a one day event. The I's & me's are organization, and I think we do need more then I's & me's, but on my first IOLS, I was thinking "we" for organization, I found out soon my trainers just show up do their training part & leave, so I had to knock the "we" out of my head and go with "I" (and family help) for organization.. This time we should be looking for some organization help.. If the trainers don't want to do both, maybe some older boy scouts in need of some service hours, could work.

 

I was kindof rolling around the idea also, that if we can't have the pre-course day that normally get two courses out of the way, and allowed us to skip the Friday evening part of the course, it might be wise to add the Friday evening back into the course.. Giving us the time to put the Backpacking skill back into the weekend course, and extra time for cooking to allow patrols to "show off" their cooking and walk around & learn from each other..

 

One of my Trainers also pointed out something we need to work out, that is that different skills have different timeings.. So unlike a camporee where you are at a station 1 hour and everyone moves, we have the issue of some skills being 1/2 hour, 1 hour, 1.5 hours.. This will cause some time blocking issues..

 

 

[BadenP]

MIB

 

I do wish you all the best but I still feel you missed my point.

MIB in your last post you specifically state several times that "I have listened to the other suggestions but it is I who will decide what is best"

 

Well MIB that is NOT the way good training is done, especially in the BSA. You have a training team which works in consensus, it is NOT a dictatorship, where each member contributes equally and the group as a whole decides what is the best method or approach to be used. No one person holds all the knowledge, and to say that you and your mom will make ALL the decisions is not only unwise but a receipe for disaster.

 

With a potential for 100 participants you better be dam sure to use as many ideas as you can from as many of your staff as possible. Training is like a well honed machine, you might be able to get by with only two parts barely able to perform the job, but the more parts and options a machine contains allows it to perform the same job with much much more efficency and quality. Just think about it okay.

[moosetracker]

Good point, BP.. I was somewhat eluding to this myself..

 

Son is a little excited about this project, before it was a normal IOLS I had given him the reins on, and with that, it would have been as he has seen me do for IOLS, and my Vice Training Chair do for other trainings, he was head organizer with help from willing family members..

 

It has sunk in that this could be big, and a great project for him, but, I do not think it has sunk in that this is now time to switch over to it more being a course director and having a "committee", and best solution may come down to a vote, or if someone is heading up a section, then the head of that section, will need freedom to make his own choices as to the best way to get it done..

 

Take all ideas now as possibilities, get more info on who we can get to help, and has knowledge of how to run the operation and is willing to take lead, then choose the best solution..

 

Example : CTBailey's idea about us providing the food gives me the willeys personally knowing the choas over providing food for a group of 28.. But, if we get on the staff a person who has experience at being a quartermaster at some large scout function, and they volunteer to do this.. It is an avenue to keep open and look into..

 

But since the choice of do we buy the food or the participants work as a patrol buy their own and split the cost, is one thing that is keeping me from putting up the registration as it is a BIG factor in what we will charge.. So it is something to figure out soon..