Woodbadge Horror Stories

[Exibar]

The staff for my WB course was great other than this one piece after TGOL. They got half way through the "lecture" before they calmed down and started speaking to us instead of lecturing.

I chalk it up to them being so wound up during the game, that they didn't have time to calm down...

 

I still say that TGOL sends the wrong message. I got out of it that during the meetings between rounds that we were supposed to agree to all do the same, but then do what would give us the most points.... I for one wouldn't agree to something that I wasn't going to do, as did most patrols in my course... so we told the other patrols what we were going to do, and did it...

so I guess there was supposed to be one patrol that "broke their word" to get more points....

 

I'm still confused at the message that dang game sends! LOL

 

oh well.... I'm halfway through completing my tickets and have until May to finish... I'm going to get those danged beads if it kills me! I'm happy to say that my troop will benefit from my tickets, but I'm starting to feel that I bit off a bigger bite than I should have.... especially when I hear that a member from another patrol had what comes down to "attend 2 roundtable meetings" as a ticket.... At least I'll know I actually EARNED my beads and I can be proud to wear them :-)

 

Mike B

[Kudu]

Too bad the time spent on the Game of Life can't instead be used to explain Baden-Powell's Patrol System.

 

It's only fair: Game of Life experts replaced the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol with EDGE theory in the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training.

 

I wonder if even one out of a thousand Wood Badge Staffers is aware of the Patrol System's minimum standard of at least 50-100 yards between Patrols.

 

If Wood Badge uses the term "Patrol Method" and still hangs portraits of Baden-Powell smiling benevolently as the participants sing "Back to Gilwell," then they should know what Baden-Powell meant by "Patrol System."

 

You know: Back in Gilwell.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[ScoutBox]

I just got back from Staffing WB last week. the course went very well. One thing that did come out negative was a few people's perspective of myself. But I don't know who had a problem with me, but they were the only two. I even got gifts from other Patrols?? Anyway, does bug me a little, because I don't know what the problem for them was. I prefer to find out these things and speck directly with the person(s) involved. As for the females on the course, I barely spoke to any of them???

 

Kudu, as for the Game of Life, I can^t speak about how it used to be,, I only took the new course. I do agree that more about the Patrol Method should be taught, but I can't do much about that in WB. But I can as a UC, and ASM talk to leaders and educate them on the side..

[TAHAWK]

"It's only fair: Game of Life experts replaced the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol with EDGE theory in the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training."

 

No, "teaching EDGE" did not replace the Patrol Leader or the description of a working patrol in that training, inclusive of the materials incorporated by reference. And the notion that application is to follow teaching is as old as my Scouting experience, so back to 1954.

 

As for "leading EDGE," that to is simply a reformulation of the idea that the objective is boy leadership and getting the adults to the background.

 

What has happened over time is that the emphasis on separate patrol activities has been lost, and that, I think, is a mistake we are paying for. The syllabus has been weakening on that aspect of Bill's method for generations.

 

"I wonder if even one out of a thousand Wood Badge Staffers is aware of the Patrol System's minimum standard of at least 50-100 yards between Patrols."

 

As good an idea as this is, it was never a "standard" in the U.S. where we never used the Patrol System, only the Patrol Method, as you know.

 

"If Wood Badge uses the term "Patrol Method" and still hangs portraits of Baden-Powell smiling benevolently as the participants sing "Back to Gilwell," then they should know what Baden-Powell meant by "Patrol System."

 

Participants would be interested in BP's notion that the Patrol leader should be appointed by the Scoutmaster. The earliest literature directed to U.S. Scouters on the Patrol Method ("The Patrol method, B.S.A. 1930.) said that "the only way for the Patrol Leader to be selected is by the express wishes of the Patrol he is to lead." Id. at p. 19. I wonder if it is the case that Bill influenced BP as he influenced West.

 

 

[Kudu]

Game of Life experts replaced the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol with EDGE theory in the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training."

 

No, "teaching EDGE" did not replace the Patrol Leader or the description of a working patrol in that training, inclusive of the materials incorporated by reference.

 

In a nutshell, that is why Leadership Development is such a destructive force in Scouting: Wood Badge Logic.

 

Bottom line is that leadership skills "experts" removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster Specific Training, and replaced them with EDGE.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[TAHAWK]

"In a nutshell, that is why Leadership Development is such a destructive force in Scouting: Wood Badge Logic.

 

Bottom line is that leadership skills "experts" removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster Specific Training, and replaced them with EDGE.

 

Yours at 300 fee"

 

Based strictly on the actual documents, your statement is simply incorrect as a matter of fact. "Logic" plays no part in it.

[Kudu]

As of the 2010 printing of the Boy Scout Scoutmaster Training Syllabus, there is no mention of a Patrol Leader, nor any description of a working Patrol in the "Patrol Method" Presentation script (pages 53-61), or the PowerPoint Presentation (slides 16-19).

 

If the "Patrol Method" Presentation was about the three-page "Patrol Method" chapter of Scoutmaster Handbook (as your "inclusive of the materials incorporated by reference" seems to imply), then the script and slides would include actual talking points about the Troop Method pictured on page 20: Stuff like the fake Baden-Powell quote, New Scout Patrols, Troop Guides, etc.

 

The true Wood Badge Horror Story is that Wood Badge Staffers can't look objectively at the "Teaching Objectives" on page 53, scan pages 54-60 for even a single mention of a Patrol Leader, and then say simply "Yeah, this Presentation should be labeled 'The Adult Association Method' or the 'EDGE Method'."

 

Just sayin'

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[qwazse]

As there is no love lost between me and EDGE, I'll spare you any biased comments I may have on that part of the WB experience.

 

Since our groups aced TGOL (partly because me and a guy from another patrol had studied game theory and quickly identified the textbook example for what it was), no complaints there. Others: not so much. Still, that wasn't divisive within patrols.

 

Although effectively car camping, our patrols acted as such the second weekend, and later in the evening, we hiked around to other patrols seeing if anybody wanted some leftover tiramisu. Plus, with cub-moms in our patrol, my cook gear was never cleaner!

 

The only travesty was being stuck inside on the most beautiful day of autumn watching films! I don't know about our patrol, but I was feeling pretty stormy!!!!

 

[TAHAWK]

You force me to defend a pretty weak syllabus, but the defects of that sometimes poorly-written and often poorly-organized document do not include "removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the 'Patrol Method' presentation of Scoutmaster Specific Training,and replaced them with EDGE" or "Adult Association."

 

At a bare minimum, if EDGE replaced The Patrol Method: 1) a description of The Patrol method would have been there before; 2) EDGE would be there now; and 3) EDGE would be there to the exclusion of material on The Patrol Method.

 

Clearly, a description of The Patrol method was in the old syllabus.

Clearly EDGE is present in the present syllabus.

Clearly, the present syllabus describes The Patrol method.

 

As always, you base your argument on wanting us to pretend that the presentation on the Patrol Method is confined to Pages 53-60 of the Syllabus. That is, you want us to ignore everything that went before the pages that you select, everything that follows, and everything incorporated by reference.

 

IF BSA WANTS THE PATROL METHOD TO BE REPLACED BY EDGE:

 

Why refer the staff presenter and the participants to the materials on The Patrol method in the handbooks?

 

Why do we find the following in the self-same syllabus:

 

"Patrols

A patrol is the basic organizational unit of a Scout troop. Composed of up to eight boys, it is a good size for Scouts to

plan and carry out projects, to hike and camp together, to take part in troop games and events, and to practice leadership

on a manageable scale."

. . .

 

"Ask participants to turn to the discussion of patrols in The Scoutmaster Handbook, Chapter 4, The Boy-Led Patrol.

Summarize the descriptions and answer any questions participants may have about patrols."

. . .

 

"Patrol Leaders

Each patrol in a troop elects a patrol leader. The patrol leader takes a leading role in planning and conducting patrol meetings and activities, and represents the patrol at meetings of the patrol leaders council. Each patrol leader can appoint an assistant patrol leader to serve with him.

 

(Participants can find more information on patrol leaders in The Scoutmaster Handbook, Chapter 4, 'The Boy-Led Patrol.')"

 

"Senior Patrol Leader

The senior patrol leader assumes the most leadership responsibility of any Scout in the troop. Elected by all troop

members, the senior patrol leader does not belong to a patrol, but rather provides leadership for everyone in the

troop. Depending on the size and needs of the troop, the senior patrol leader can appoint one or more assistant

senior patrol leaders to take on some of the obligations of troop leadership. The senior patrol leader is the troop member with whom the Scoutmaster works most directly. By helping the senior patrol leader prepare to lead troop meetings and activities, and by being on the sidelines to coach and support the senior patrol leader during those events, a Scoutmaster can ensure that the senior patrol leader succeeds, has fun, acquires leadership skills, and enables the troop to be boy-led.

Patrol Leaders Council The patrol leaders council is the primary leadership body of the troop. It is composed of the senior patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, the patrol leaders, and any troop guides. Important functions of the patrol leaders council are planning the troops overall program, leading the preparations for troop meetings and campouts, and ensuring that all troop events are efficient, interesting, and well run. (The responsibilities and activities of the patrol leaders council will be discussed more fully at the end of Session One.)"

 

. . .

"Of course adults have vital roles to play in the continued growth and success of a Boy Scout troop. However, adults

roles are designed to allow the boys to learn and practice effective leadership skills, and to have the satisfaction of

knowing that with the guidance, coaching, and support of adults, they did it themselves."

 

 

Clearly, Rick, the presentation on The Patrol Method begins before page 53 of the Syllabus.

 

ANd it goes on after page 60.

 

Following page 60, the syllabus and AV materials emphasize boy-leadership by focusing on a model PLC, "the vehicle through which a Scoutmaster can ensure that a troop is, in fact, boy-run and uses the patrol method."

 

"The commitment of the boys to the troop and the program is also critical. One way to ensure that commitment is to give them the responsibility for doing the planning."

 

"The important thing to keep in mind, though, is that Scouts who are given the responsibility, resources, and support to plan and run their own troop meetings are learning extremely important lessons in leadership. Their growing confidence and advancing leadership abilities are a direct result of the efforts of their Scoutmaster to provide support and guidance and then, for the most part, staying behind the scenes."

 

"The boy-led troop is perhaps the greatest resource available to a Scoutmaster. By giving responsibility and guidance to

the boys for planning and then carrying out their own program, adult leaders are helping Scouts become good leaders

and allowing them to design adventures that are within their current levels of skill and confidence."

 

Consistent with the concept of "Patrol and Troop hikes," one of the exercises towards the end of the course is to

 

"Lead participants through the experience of a patrol planning for an outdoor activity."

 

Later in the syllabus, these comments are made:

 

"Too often, a troops program is planned by adults and then offered to the boys. It is far more effective to give the boys responsibility for selecting and carrying out a troops program with adults in the background roles of supporting and coaching."

 

"A troop's annual program should be driven by what the boys want to do, not by what adults prefer. Involving all the Scouts in a troop in the planning process helps ensure that this will be the case."

 

Rick, I and many others see "EDGE" as a tool to prevent adult-led units. It creates as the goal NOT adult-led camping clubs for boys ("Webelos III") but, instead, boy-leadership in patrols and the troop. In fact, as a tool of Webelos III, it stinks: "Whatever the case, you as Scoutmasters can be most effective by adjusting your leadership styles to match the needs of your troop. Rather than taking the lead yourself in situations where the boys are capable of finding their own way, you can coach and support them in providing their own leadership. And when they do need more hands-on direction from you to teach them a skill, to set a boundary, or to move them to a new level of their development, you,can do that, too."

 

Could the syllabus be better? Absolutely. To address just your pet peeve, I would like to see more emphasis on separate patrol activities and on a troop as a collection of patrols. I would like the word "leader" to apply only to boys with "Scouter" or "adult" as the label for those 18 and older (I tell participants that I use the words in that fashion and why.) But I am long past seeing everything I don't prefer as the result of conspiracy, as opposed to differences of approach, opinion, experience, or competence.

 

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Ya know you can debate all you want........But quite simply the game of life made some very competitive scouters look very bad and who they really are.

 

Being lied to by scouters....sure it is just a game, but can you honestly ever trust them again??????

 

No.

 

There are 6 adult scouters I trust, three outside my immediate home units and none of them are professional staff.

 

 

[Kudu]

Just to be clear, Tahawk, none of those quotes are from the "Patrol Method" Presentation script (pages 53-61), correct?

 

So you do agree with me that (strictly speaking) the 25 minute Patrol Method Presentation itself never mentions a Patrol Leader or describes a working Patrol, correct?

 

 

[ScoutBox]

I am looking in my WB Course 2011 book and on pages 53 is the Patrol Leader Installation, Patrol Leader Oath, and the SM Minute.

 

Pages 55-63 discuss the PLC, and the day's agenda. I know from my course that the Patrol Method is something discussed often, and amongst patrol members. also the SPL spoke about this during this PLC.

[TAHAWK]

Yes, Rick, and Christ did not mention God in every sentence. The Patrol Method permeates the Scoutmaster Specific syllabus.

 

You might also consider how the planned patrol cooking at the Summit, which you have pointed out, fits your claim that BSA has abandoned The Patrol Method.

[Kudu]

The Patrol Method permeates the Scoutmaster Specific syllabus.

 

Except, strangely, the Patrol Method Presentation.

 

Just sayin'.

[TAHAWK]

Your talking about a syllabus that starts talking about advancement in the middle of another topic and lists the boy-led troop as a source of information about outdoor skills. They mean well.