"youth led" vs "youth run"

[emb021]

Over the years I've heard the terms "youth led" and "youth run" used. Typically you will head that we (troops, OA, Venturing, etc) is to be "youth led", but not "youth run".

 

Ok. But what do those terms mean?

 

I think I have an idea, but thought others out there might have a better one (no more then a paragraph) of what the 2 terms mean (I have no idea if National has anything written on them).

 

Anyone want to take a go at it?

[RememberSchiff]

My thoughts...

Youth led = youth do the planning, make decisions

Youth run = youth execute the plan, change decisions (Plan B)

 

Execution is the harder part.

 

My $0.02

[Twocubdad]

I don't really see a distinction, but I suppose Schiff's is as good as any.

 

Trouble is it really doesn't define how Scouts interact with framework for the program put in place by adults, either nationally or locally. And it doesn't address the relationship between Scouts and adult leaders, which I suspect is probably more where EMB was headed with this.

 

By Shiff's definition, our troop is both boy lead and run. But I guarantee a number of you would describe us as a plop camping bunch of parlor scouts. Sticks and stones. As a large troop (65), we are lead top down by the SPL and PLC. Our adults take an active role in working with the boys.

 

At the same time, the Scouts are challenged to take on more and more responsibilities. Our goal is for each Scout in a position of responsibility to do more, do a better job and take more responsibility than the guy before him. It tends to be a two-steps-forward, one-step-back process, depending on the abilities of the individual Scouts.

 

Our job as leaders to to recognize and assess those differences and to step in and out; to take a lighter or heavier hand depending on the ability of the boys we're working with. Consequently, at any given time, different elements of the program, even different individual Scouts may be more or less boy led/run than other elements or individuals. The Aardvark patrol leader may be out front, setting the pace as the best PL we've ever had while the Aardvark's assigned ASM drinks coffee. Meanwhile the Zebra PL is off in a ditch with the SPL and ASM over his shoulder, whispering in his ear.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[moosetracker]

I have no idea.. I use them interchangably, but if you asked me if they should be youth led or youth run.. I would say "Led".

 

Youth lead to me means everything RemmeberSchiff said about both Youth led & Youth run.. To lead you do the planning and decision making and as leader you make sure the plan is being executed (by the boys lower down the chain of command), and if a decision must be made to alter and go to plan B, you make it..

 

Youth Run (that has a different meaning to youth led) - would then need to stand for.. The adults are making the decisions and the boys are the figure head, or puppet of the Adult leaders in executing the adults plan..

 

 

Normally I don't distinguish, but that would be my interpretation if someone told me to nit-pick and distinguish the two..

[dkurtenbach]

I think most folks use the two terms interchangeably -- the important distinction is not "led" vs. "run" but "youth" vs. "adult."

 

Dan K.

[Kudu]

My impression is the opposite of moosetracker's:

 

Youth RUN would be the program as Baden-Powell designed it: The youth actually RUN the Troop.

 

That means NO "Troop Committee" of mommies and daddies in control, therefore No Boards of Review, No Scoutmaster Conferences, No adult "Scout Spirit" wild cards, No Position of Responsibility advancement requirements (therefore a Patrol's best leader remains Patrol Leader as long as he is the Patrol's best leader), no adult treasurer in control of funds, Patrol Leader Council issues "Blue Cards" to Scouts who pitch in to help.

 

Patrol Leaders are responsible for Patrol Hikes without adult supervision, preferably every "fortnight" but at least once a month. The Scouters only find out which Scouts have been promoted to Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class when they attend a PLC. Although Patrol Leaders plan and run Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights, the flip side is that responsibility for planning the details of whole-Troop campouts can be delegated to the Scouters by the Patrol Leaders after they have decided on a general theme.

 

A typical example of such a PLC (called a "Court of Honour"), can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

 

Baden-Powell's actual rules and regulations can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm

 

"Youth LED" would be the Leadership Development idea that the "Patrol" is a little learning laboratory designed to "teach everybody how to be a leader." Therefore "Patrol Method" means short-term Patrol Leaders "learning leadership" by planning whole-Troop activities in a PLC, and then practicing management formulas while cooking and washing the dishes.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[Engineer61]

 

Well...my view would be:

 

Youth Led : Boys plan.

 

Youth Run : Boys plan... AND handle all logistics, financing, execution, bookkeeping (including all corresponding with District.

[Stosh]

A lot of times my 2-cents isn't worth 2-cents, but this is how I see it.

 

Boy-led - The boys do the whole show from beginning to end. They design the program, plan it out and then execute it.

 

Boy-run - The adults do the design program, plan it out parts and then have the boys execute ("run") it. The leaders lead and the boys follow directions and run it. Not much leadership required and everyone is safe and directed in the correct direction.

 

I never use the phrase boy-run because that is how most troops that think their boys are showing leadership do it. However, to them boy-led is far too dangerous to leave in the hands of the boys.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

I've seen too many people playing semantics with either term to care.

 

Facts on the ground: if the boys have standards of what they need to do to plan and implement, they will live up to them. If the standards fall short, adults will take up the slack. But if by and large the youth are exceeding standards, we keep raising the bar.

 

It works backwards at times: the more slack adults take up, the easier it is to lower standards for the youth, the less capable they'll seem, because they'll have fewer chances to perform. Over time, we wind up lowering the bar.

 

We have to keep reminding folks in which way the balance should be tipping.

 

 

 

[ldrut]

I have struggled with this one when trying to explain it and have ultimately decided that "led" and "run" are too similar and interchangeable a pair of terms to try to hang this difference on. Instead I use "led" and "directed"

 

The leader is the publicly visible face of the unit. He plans and conducts events. He manages the discipline of others in the unit. He supervises sub-leaders or individuals in the unit. He sees to the training of new and continuing members of the unit. He controls the day-to-day operation of the unit by making the many little decisions needed to keep the unit running.

 

In scouts troop meetings, patrol meetings, campouts, outings, events, PLCs, Courts of Honor are all functions of the leaders.

 

 

The director is the behind the scenes controller of the unit. He sets the "big picture" goals and directions of the unit. He examines the operation of the unit to see that it is running as desired. He monitors the finances of the unit to ensure it will have the resources needed and, if not, takes action to increase income or decrease expenses. He controls the year-to-year operation of the unit by making the big decisions that create the identity and philosophy of the unit.

 

In scouts Committee meetings, SM conferences, Boards of Review, Committee Meetings, and finances are all functions of the director

 

 

A troop is youth-led, adult-directed.

 

A crew is youth-led, mostly youth-directed.

 

An in either case there is an adult executive to make sure it doesn't run off the rails.

[SR540Beaver]

A very smart friend of mine named EagleDad once told me that boy/led/run is a dynamic thing and looks different in each troop and can change from year to year. He told me this when I and two other adults were working to get a brannd new troop up and running that consisted of newly crossed over Webelos. We didn't want our troop to be Webelos III. But how do you take a bunch of 11 year old boys and turn them into a highly functioning boy/led/run troop. Barry wisely counseled me that it looks different in every troop depending on the size, age, experience, training, etc. in that troop and that is an ever changing dynamic as you have older boys age out and new boys come in. It is in a constant state of flux. For a group of five or six 11 year olds, all they may be able to handle at the outset is planning, coordinating and conductin their own opening ceremony for the troop meeting. That is all they may be capable of right now, so they are boy led to the best of their training and abilities. As they age, recieve training, mature, grow, etc. they will get to the point they can run more and more until they get to the point they can do the whole thing while the adults sit out in the hallway shooting the breeze. Then you have a large number of boys age out and a large number of new boys cross over and you are back to working to get them where they once were. You should have enough aging and experienced boys to do most of the heavy lifting at this time, but adults may need to assist where needed.

 

Boy/led/run is kind of like perfection, an ideal to strive towards.

[ctbailey]

In my opinion, SR540 has hit the proverbial nail on the head! That approach is precisely how I counsel new units to proceed. Also... the occasional "unit Reset," by which I mean sometimes a unit has swung so far out of balance (either too much boy "led" OR too much adult "led.)

[AvidSM]

Leadership is a skill. There are many styles and kinds of leadership. Being a leader means you are responsible for what happens - that you are in charge. Scouting is very clear about the style of leadership that the boys should follow.

 

Running things is applying leadership skills. The SPL runs the troop by demonstrating leadership. He leads the PLC in making the decisions which affect what goes on in the troop. Each PL runs their own patrol in the same way.

 

The adults demonstrate leadership also, but in other ways. As a mentor, the SM trains the youth leaders. The SM provides advice and guidance to the SPL and the PLC. The biggest challenge for a new SM is to understand this.

[Game with a Purpose]

Well said, SR540 & ctb. To me they can mean the same thing. The really critical aspect is that the adults clearly understand their role. Leave it all up to the boys, and it could be game time all the time. I prefer to tell Scouters during training that the program is boy led, but adult run. After all, it's the adults who are responsible for following guidelines, rechartering, signing MB cards, approving and filing forms for rank advancement, etc. When explained to leaders, this definition seems to make sense to most.