Is Woodbadge Worth it

[BadenP]

Brent

 

You are still a real piece of work, your nasty accusatory tone gives all southerners a bad name. I never claimed to be an expert on WB and aside from being a DE I have been a WDL, ACM, ASM, SM, Advisor, COR, CC over the last almost 30 years. I have been to and completed both WB and WB21C and have been asked to staff WB21C twice. So while I am no WB expert I do have a lot of experience to draw from, probably much more than your own.

 

What I related was what is occuring in my own council over the last five years or more to try to show SR540 that WB21C is NOT being done exactly the same way in all councils as he seems to think. The curriculum is the same but thats about it, the SE here doesn't seem to care either as these good old boys are his main support in council.

 

So Brent before you go running off at the mouth again at least get your facts straight, something you constantly seem to have trouble doing, or you can always crawl back under your rock .(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Interesting comment, Brent Allen.

 

 

My district had a collapse of the Cub Scout daycamp program last summer. The only reason the show went on was that just about every professional Scouter in the Council was at our daycamp presenting the program.

 

Well, that's not going to happen twice. I've been working with the DE and a new Day Camp Director has been recruited who is very promising. But how do you go about recruiting the people you need to staff various activities?

 

One idea that occurred to me was to ask Cub Scout Packs to take "ownership" of a program element both this year and perhaps in the future as well. Wwe already have one Cub Pack that staffs the shooting sports --- they recruit and train adults within the pack as needed, and show up when needed.

 

My thought was to extend that to other program elements --- woodworking and cooking for example. Take advantage of our Pack organization and leadership structure.

 

I often look for ways to take advantage of den, pack, patrol and troop leadership structures to get tasks done.

 

I suspect that may be a leadership method I began to appreciate more at Wood Badge, where I was a part of a patrol and making that work.

 

Indeed, as I think about it and another thread that is discussing what Scout Troops can do to get more Webelos to join their program, it occurs to me that our Day Camp Director might ask Scout Troops to take ownership of Day Camp program as well.

 

A Scout Troop that puts on a great field sports or other program for Cub Scouts at Day Camp is going to show case their Troop to most of the Cub Scouts, parents and leaders in the district. That might be an incentive to get them to help with the program....

[SR540Beaver]

BadenP: "I am glad you are having such a wonderful time staffing WB21C, but IMO, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem, which is where I envision you are currently. I can tell from your post you already have developed the superior attititude of look at me I'm a WB staff director, the cult mentality. My answer to you is simply Woopee, so what. You are still no better a scouter than anyone else. Enjoy your little power trip."

 

Well, you obviously don't know me. Part of the solution is making WB a good experience for participants. Part of the problem is people who choose to do nothing more than spread their sour disdain to others. I never claimed to be a better scouter than others. I know many, many good scouters that I can't hold a candle to, so your once again off base with your assumptions of power trips.

 

Since we are making unfounded assumptions about people, I'll take a swing. You once were a professional years ago and you think that gives you some special insight to how BSA is run today. Something, somewhere in your employment went wrong causing sour grapes towards BSA and you bad mouth them at every opportunity on the internet.

 

Am I as right about you as you were about me?

 

Bottom line to all of this. You don't like WB. We get that. But must you discourage people who are interested? Is that helpful, friendly, courteous or kind?

[BadenP]

SR540

 

Sorry you are not even close, as usual, in your conclusions. I left the scouting profession because I got married, NOT because I hate the BSA, which was just a plain stupid comment on your part. Anyone who has been a scouting professional will tell you that it puts a severe strain on any marriage, many scouting pros are divorced or on a second or third marriage. After just shy of five years in the profession I wanted a normal family life, no more 80-90 hour workweeks, and was offered another great opportunity in another field, so I left.

 

As far as WoodBadge is concerned, as I already stated, I took both versions completed both tickets and have two sets of beads. Try to get this straight SR540 this time, I told you that, IMO, WB21C was an inferior course compared to its predecessor. The information and experience was much less relevant or useful in application. That was not just my opinion but the majority of the members of the class, half of whom never completed their tickets. My position concerning WB21C is National missed the boat when they developed the curricula for the reasons stated earlier in this post. If you have a problem with that SR540, too bad. Now you can get off your self rightgeous high horse and go staff your WB21C clasees for those in your council who think it is worth all the time and money they will be investing. I will continue to advocate for revising WB21C to a form closer to its predecessor whether you like it or not.

[desertrat77]

Brent, interesting comments, thanks. I have no doubt team building skills are needed at District, but I content that WB isn't the only place to learn how to work as a team...the WB course material has been taught in many other arenas, like college and the military. In my military duties, I use these skills every day. And teach them as well. Somehow, I've managed to to do this without WB.

 

And to stir the pot a bit more, if WB teaches superb team building skills, alot of your fellow WB alums could use a refresher. Generally speaking, the only "team" WBers seem to be interested in is the one comprised of people wearing beads.

 

The ticket doesn't "scare" me. Hardly the right word. I think the proper word would be "bore." "Amuse" might be another word that comes to mind. A big paperwork drill. I've completed these types of things when the military was going thru its Total Quality Management mania, and it's just mind numbing.

 

So while I may in fact be ignorant and misinformed, these are my impressions of WB. From what I read, plus my discussions with many WBers over the decades, both pro and con, I view WB today as a big lesson in committee work. No thanks.

[Twocubdad]

Alright, guys, time to give it a rest.

[vol_scouter]

Brent,

 

WB or the WB ticket do not 'scare' me. The ticket reads like a lot of touchy-feely things that I have been forced to do throughout my life and I have never found them to be beneficial. The business managers with whom I have dealt that had this kind of training were all horrible managers. The whole course seems like a waste of time at best and from my personal experiences, detrimental at worst. In my council, the majority of the best SM and ASM are not WB trained but most holding positions at the district or council level are WB trained. Reading the ticket only confirmed my fears. Finally, according to that website, on item is how to increase diversity in scouting. I work closely with people of diverse races, religions, backgrounds, et cetera. I like a diverse environment but I do not believe that diversity should be a goal. To achieve that goal, scouting will lose its' identity and become things such as a soccer club. If scouting has an active youth led program and opens its doors to all who meet the membership requirements, then it will be diverse.

 

So though I normally agree with Brent, on this issue, I must respectfully disagree.

 

 

[packsaddle]

To followup on what TwoCub wrote and also to try to temper BadenP's tendency to stereotype Southerners:

just remember that 'Politenessman' or 'Big Brother' or whatever...IS watching you guys play. Nice, nice.

[OldGreyEagle]

I want to be Politenessman, I have a list to whack with my stainless steel hankie...

[BrentAllen]

vol,

Just a couple of points, and I hope they don't come across as rude - though, you know us Southerners. :-)

 

1. There are many types of diversity other than race. This is explored in the course and the main point is to get new people involved instead of rounding up the same old suspects (the good ol boys club).

 

2. In the courses I attended and staffed, the worst participant was a PhD, who knew everything. He was the smartest person in the course, in his own mind, and he wanted everyone to know it. He was so focused on proving he was the smartest and winning every contest that he completely missed the point of the excercises, which was usually coming together to work as a team, valuing the input of all team members, finding different ways to solve problems, etc. Since he was obviously the smartest, the rest of his patrol should just follow his lead on everything - no input from them on anything, whether it be a game or cooking or anything. Needless to say, the rest of the patrol grew sick of him pretty quickly. The PhD was so smart, he closed his mind and missed the entire point of the course and alienated everyone in his patrol. In WB, things are not always as they appear, and there is usually a much bigger lesson being taught or discovered under the surface.

 

To quote Waite Phillips:

"What is really important is what you learn after thinking you know it all."

[Scoutfish]

I put off taking WB until I had some more experience under my belt. Right now, I am glad I did as I have had time to see thimngs from a better perspective as a CubMaster.

 

But what really gets me is the stupid, and I do mean just that...STUPID ...arguing over wether or not WB21C is worth a damn of even follows anything to do with boyscouts.

 

Tell you waht I do see, and I think my "non WB'er" perspective let's me see without a biased veiw:

 

I see a bunch of stuffy egotistical people arguing in a most and extremely UN SCOUTLIKE manner about wether a class actually represents what scouting is about.

 

 

KUDU: You don'yt like WB21C. Yeah, we got that. You say it isn't what Scouting is about or what GBB or BP intended.

 

As soon as anybody tries to make good out of what YOU personally judged as bad, you insult them, question their intent as well as their integrity. You blast them and decide they are less of scouters without knowing a thing about them.

 

Do you really think dogging, insulting, and dissing the BSA and anybody who is willing to work with/ for them ...is a fine example of what either Bill or BP thought were great scouting values and ideal?

 

 

Baden P:

 

You lament about how anybody who is taking WB21C is shortchanging and that the effort is for nothing, You say the old timers know what it was really about and how leadership wil suffer for it.

 

Leadership of what? Refusing to do anything different than what you know?

 

You said numbers were dropping because of WB21C.

 

Have you considered that number may be dropping bevcause all people see is a bunch of people saying how awfull and horrible a class is?

Change happens every day, everywhere,. But NOBODY will sign up for saomething if the instructor make it clear from the beginning that the class they will be taught is done so with disdain and contemp. The course is not the problem...the "we know that the other is better" instructors are!

 

And listening to all the sarguements in all the posts concerning WB and WB21C...I realoize that you guys are arguing toe-may-toes with tah-mah-toes.

 

I have never taken the course, but taliing to real live people who have taken it... I realize that the newer course is not to teach you how to camp, or scout skills, but to teach you how to be able to lead others in obtaining and most effectively being able to run a unit that learns those skills.

 

In other words, WB isn't going to teach you to put up a tent and form a patrol, but should teach you to find the most efective way to be able to take yourunit of scouts out into the woods where they CAN learn efecting skils dealling with camping, patrols, planning anf such.

 

 

WB21C is like art class. Art class does not give you or teach you how to get tallent or be artistivc, It only guides you in better ways to aply your talent to whatever medium you are using! Then it gives you tips on how to get the most out of galleries and mingling with other artists in your community!

 

 

And lastly, a class is only as god/bad as the participants and instructors.

If you go to one MacDonalds and the service is bad...it does not mean that every MacDonalds is bad. It only means that you had a bad experience at THAT restaurant.

And a good portion of our experiences is made up of our own attitude and preconceived ideas.

 

You go in with the mindset that you are going to hate WB21C....then I imagine you won't be dissapointed.

 

Go in with an open mind..you might just learn stuff and have a good time.

[Scoutfish]

Incidentally, our council only offers WB every two years. Not because of finding people to sign up, but because the course instructors act as the ticket counselors after the class and realize that being a counselor and active intructor - while still doing all the other duties during the year - would be too much of a burdon on the counselors and take away from the experience of the students.

 

Can't wait til next year when I take Wood Badge!

[AwHeck]

I only want to make one point. BadenP in a prior post actually questioned the '30 by 30' requirement stating 'how often does that happen?' (relating to NOT holding a class) I can tell you from personal experience in our council that a class was canceled a couple of years ago for precisely that reason. I was a staff member, one of many who had put many hours of preparation in over the course of many months getting ready for our course that was ultimately canceled because we didn't have 30 registered 30 days out. Unfortunately in our neck of the woods at least, we've seen a distinct trend of delaying committing to ANYTHING very far in advance. We believe that had we been given the chance, our numbers would have been up before the course but we weren't given that chance.

 

The council still DOES provide two courses a year, spring and fall, but know that course CAN and ARE canceled if they don't have the requisite numbers.

[Lisabob]

Well to answer Sctdad's original question (are you still here, Sctdad?): it will only be worth it if you think it will be worth it.

 

People who don't want to do it or who don't like the very idea of the course will probably find it not worthwhile & should focus their time, money and energy elsewhere. WB (21stC or otherwise) is not a magic bullet, and it is not a requirement for good service to scouting.

 

 

[vol_scouter]

Brent,

 

First, no offense taken. As to diversity, I did not say nor mean to imply race or any other marker of diversity. I still do not agree in changing the program for diversity's sake. We should be developing a vigorous outdoor program. That will attract youth of diverse backgrounds, religions, races, etc. We should not make programs to target certain groups. I could only work that part of the ticket if it involved assuring that the youth who meet the BSA requirements are never blocked from joining.

 

I can understand the experience that you had with the PhD and I assume that you were not meaning it personally. So some people do not make good leaders and do not recognize it. If your comments were meant personally, then you do not know me. I have been asked to lead groups since I was a youth without me seeking the position. In meeting, I usually talk little and listen interjecting only when I can make a valuable point. Most everyone calls me by my first name because true respect is earned. I am easy going and not too concerned with who gets credit, especially in things like scouting. So while you may have had a bad experience with a PhD, it was not me. Professionally, I am asked to lead teams presumably because I do it well. There is certainly much that I can learn and I do not consider myself as an expert in management. However, as I mentioned, the worst mangers that I have encountered had business management course training so I am not impressed. In this day and time when most adults have little outdoor experience, WB should be more about leading outdoor programs and little business management. My life experiences have consistently shown little evidence of benefit of the introspection implied in the ticket. So while I might be wrong, I see no benefit for taking the current WB course.