Why is the old Wood Badge Training deemed inadequate?

[HICO_Eagle]

"Our knowledge of leadership, what works, how it works is always being worked on. B-P never knew about concepts like situational leadership, tead development, servant leadership, etc. Its nothing about the old being 'bad', but that we have learned so much about what works & doesn't work."

 

I think Green Bar Bill and B-P both knew about situational leadership and the like, they just didn't bother creating fancy terms for it. I have been singularly unimpressed by most "leadership training" I've taken in the military or Boy Scouts -- much of it seems to have been put together by academics needing to publish something. The situational leadership lessons using "Twelve O'Clock High" are interesting but too my mind more formalism than is really needed and Maslow's Hierarchy and the like are just so much bovine excrement to me.

 

So far, I have seen nothing in any of the descriptions of WB21C that interests me much less suggests it's a good use of 8 hours (and yes, I know the course is much more than 8 hours). On the other hand, I've seen smatterings of GBB's original course that I would gladly spend a week or so on.

[acco40]

So, you have no interest in learning about troop meetings, PLC meetings, patrol meetings, team formation, team development, team leadership, communication, diversity, project planning, chaplain aides, Leave No Trace, problem solving, managing conflict, coaching and mentoring, self-assessment and overall Scouting vision and enthusiasm nor see much use for above?(This message has been edited by acco40)

[desertrat77]

Rehash of my previous post(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[HICO_Eagle]

"So, you have no interest in learning about troop meetings, PLC meetings, patrol meetings, team formation, team development, team leadership, communication, diversity, project planning, chaplain aides, Leave No Trace, problem solving, managing conflict, coaching and mentoring, self-assessment and overall Scouting vision and enthusiasm nor see much use for above?"

 

I have already learned plenty about troop meetings, PLC meetings, patrol meetings, team leadership, etc. in the past 30+ years. There's always more to learn but I don't believe the "Everybody Wins" game is going to provide much of it. I've already had more than I want of the pap that passes for management training in recurring fads. You can ask my Scouts whether I gave them Scouting vision and enthusiasm or helped them with coaching, mentoring and problem solving.

 

This is precisely the problem I have with the WB21C attitude: so many people think it's the only (or best) source for learning about these subjects. I learned far more about being a SM by talking with other SMs over coffee than I ever did from SMF or UoS. It reminds me of when the military went nuts over TQM/TQL.

[JoeBob]

HICO,

I'm in the same boat as you.

1- I'm NOT going to be a lifetime Scouter.

a- When my youngest boy ages out in 9 years, I'll be done.

b- Folks who are scout leaders with no children in scouts are a little creepy...

c- I had a life before kids and am looking forward to getting back into the woods alone!

d- I'm too stingy with my time to fritter it perpetuating a cult from Irwin, TX. (My basest impression of WB21C is that it's national's method of keeping a no-cost work force dedicated to high FOS numbers.)

2- Every time I've been approached to attend WB21C, the recruiter has failed to close the deal because of the mysterious curriculum. You've got to show me a concrete syllabus. Mind games are a negative.

3- Based on what I've been able to glean about WB21C, there is a very good chance that the program would shorten my tenure as a Scouter.

4- Posts like acco's "So, you have no interest in learning about troop meetings, PLC meetings..." strongly reinforce my negative impression.

 

This is my attitude now. Perhaps I should wait for WB22C.

[ScoutBox]

Joe you can find the syllabus on the net...

 

There's no mystery too WB. People who say there is either haven't taken it yet or are making up stuff..

[Eagle92]

Or they may have taken the old course, where they did not want you to know what's up ahead of time. Everythign was designed so that you used the Patrol method to go up the chain of command.

[OldGreyEagle]

I think this whole thing is a stitch. I took the new curriculum in 2001. I was told by more than one beader how inadequate the new course was (no one had taken it as yet, so it's hard to understand why they "knew" it was inadequte) how I could never be a good scouter because I was taking the tainted course. Got to be a real concern, all the old school bead wearers telling me how lousy the course was going to be and how I should have taken the old course.

 

After I took the course and got the beads I was told, to my face what a fraud it was that I was wearing the same beads they had earned with so much time and talent and skill.

 

So, you might say I developed a real complex about "old wood badgers", I felt like I had to constantly apologize for not being a true scouter like they were just so I could sit with them. And now, this group is mad because their training is seen as inadequate. The irony is delicious

 

BTW, I once in a fit of pique made a very profuse apolpogy to a poster on the forum that I had not taken the old Wood Badge course but that I had taken the one that was available when I was ready to take it. I was astounded to learn that to satisfy that person, I would have had to have taken the pre 1972 course to be a real scouter. That for me to have any hope of being an adequate scouter I would have had to taken Wood Badge the year I graduated high school.

 

Its tough to learn your only chance of being a real scouter disappeared over 30 years ago

 

So, if you want to take Wood Badge go and have a blast and serve the youth of the unit you serve, if you don't want to take Wood Badge, don't go and serve the youth of the unit you serve,

 

In the end, its about serving youth and I thank all who serve, Beaded or Unbeaded

 

[BadenP]

I have to agree with OGE, it is not the WB beads that make you a better scouter, it the time you spend working with the youth and sharing your gifts with them. In truth WB is mostly a lot of window dressing that gives you just another fancy doodad to wear on your uniform.

[desertrat77]

"It reminds me of when the military went nuts over TQM/TQL."

 

Hico, you hit the nail on the head. I recall those dark days...it was just like Stalinism. No fractionalism! Better not say a bad word about TQM...it's never going away, the principles are revolutionary, and if you aren't 100 percent sold on it, you are a half stepper/dinosaur/not very intelligent/etc.

 

And who were the most vocal proponents of TQM? Who taught the endless courses on Shewhart cycles, fishbone charts, nominal group technique, process action teams? The comm guy who couldn't fix radios, the overweight master sergeant awaiting retirement, the chief fired from his flight for harrassment, the lieutenant colonel no one wanted...all of them assigned to the TQM office, and then transformed by the power to dictate how many metrics each squadron had to track, training requirements, etc...because they held The Keys to Enlightenment.

 

Management theory can turn into a beast when proponents turn Management 101 into a cure-all, and Proof of Complete Dedication to the Organization.

 

TQM did go away. The endless classes, powerpoint briefings, paperwork, charts, graphs, surveys, and committee work (that's what it is, at the end of the day!) didn't produce better leaders. Instead, the opposite happened. It stifled initiative, and a generation of leaders were raised to doubt the validity of their better instincts.

 

And Joe Bob, I'm with you--I consider my off duty time to be more valuable than gold coin. There's optional training worth attending, training that ain't worth attending but you must, and training that ain't mandatory and ain't worth it. The latter gets chopped off the calendar every time.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[jhankins]

For anyone that would like, send me a message and I can send you a list of the subject matter used in WB21C and the learning objectives.

[SeattlePioneer]

Crew 21,

 

 

 

[Crew21_Adv]

SP,

 

Greetings again!

 

I highly agree... I attended in 89, and staffed both the previous course and current course.

 

I too, could not see additional value of attending the course again, after staffing it four times. I don't see myself doing anything more in my unit, district, or council. After a few WB21C courses, I too was invited to attend again. I agree, I never saw the point in recruiting previous Pre2000 WB learners. But that didn't change the Recruiting topic at CDCs or Staff Developments.

 

Again. Here is my opinion. Definitely not based on fact, but a perception I shared with a few Scouters. Out of a few courses, I have only attended weeklong course, not the two weekend schedules. I understand there are very few weeklong courses anymore.

 

I've sat thru a few discussions regarding PreWB2000 learners. You can say this was a "group thought", but most of the Scouters discussing this had similar opinions. Towards the end of the 90's in most council WB courses, though I don't have any proof I feel pretty confident, the average age of learner became 50-65. Sometimes late parents, and sometimes grandparents, because mother and father are far to busy with work with limited vacations. Even for the two weekend course, fewer parents and mid 30-50 year old parents were having difficulty attending. Also, two weekend courses were having difficulty achieving the minimum student count. Thru the 90's, progressively, attendance was falling, achieving the "30 by 30" was becoming difficult to reach, and some courses were cancelled.

 

At least ten years ago, I bought into this belief. That Pre2000WBers by the time they attended, their son (or grandson) was a Life Scout about to turn Eagle, and the WB learners age and health was very limiting.

 

WB21C, definitely opened up the recruiting pool, extending the course to Cub Scout thru Venturing, now the Cub Scout Den Leader (with less than two year tenure) directly out of NLE and Cub Scout Specifics can attend WB21C with their first year. But as WB21C started out, WB staffers were overcoming a recent lack of attendance. Recruiting Cub Scout leaders was a new thing for them. But they (and I) needed to obtain learners (and achieve the 30 by 30), so recruiting Pre2000WB Scouters was on the slide show for recruiting. I didn't come up with it, but I've seen it and heard it a few times.

 

After a few years of low attendance, 10 years ago, I could see the need for recruiting WB learners to make up for those continuous years of low attendance. Though I'm not happy about it Pre2000WB Scouters was part of that recruiting pool for the new WB21C. Now in 2011, WB21C attendance has been very successful. But the perception remains, from sherminators question "the old Wood Badge Training deemed inadequate".

 

Bottom line SP. I agree. I don't see any additional value of asking a Pre2000 WB Scouter to attend again. I think that if a Pre2000WB Scouters is still around, they are still serving their unit, district or council, and earning their beads every day.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Crew 21,

 

 

Your experience provides insight into the Wo Badge course I never had before.

 

I became an Assistant Scoutmaster in 1981 at age 31 and Scoutmaster in 1982. I'd never been a Boy Scout --- my outdoor background came from through the Seattle Mountaineers outdoor club and hiking, backpacking, rock and glacier climbing, cross country skiing, rowboat cruising and so on.

 

So when I took the week long Wood Badge course in 1985 (age 35) scoutcraft was not something I needed training. But the emotional experience of patrol and troop camping and issues was useful to me in particular.

 

Our council has Wood Badge courses in the spring and fall, and a couple of sections each time I think. The courses fill up reliably fairly soon after they open is my understanding.

 

 

I've never heard complaints from people taking Wood Badge about the course, although I don't hear people praising it especially either.

 

I'm not impressed with the rather bitter complaints I read on this Board about Wood Badge either. That's just foreign to my experience, anyway.

 

 

Thanks for your comments. They have been an education.