Question about 21CWB

[SR540Beaver]

Would somebody give the turn table a thump, the record seems to be stuck again.

[oldisnewagain1]

> Would somebody give the turn table a thump, the record seems to be stuck again.

 

What's a turn table? ... a record?

 

 

[JMHawkins]

What's a turn table? ... a record?

 

Oh, they're awesome! You can use them to make cool, spiral artwork on old CDs that are too scratched up to play anymore. It's a great Cub Scout B&G centerpiece project.

[TAHAWK]

1. Kudu posts:

"

The "Three Purposes of Scouting" are clearly defined by our Congressional Charter, the statute by which the government favors our religious corporation with a monopoly on Scouting:

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, [1.] the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, [2.] to train them in scoutcraft, and [3.] to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_federal_charter.htm

 

So clearly our monopoly was imposed on the American people with the understanding that the mastery of Scoutcraft is one of the Three Purposes of Scouting, not a mere "Method" as the cult of Leadership Development would have us believe."

 

Hello, Rick.

 

English is a flexible language, but not so flexible that you can change "methods" into "purposes" right in front of us. You may have an argument that the Congressional Charter contemplated teaching methods not used today - or in the 1950's or 1960's, but you cannot torture "methods" into "purposes."

 

2. I have witnessed a total of seven Wood Badge courses starting with the original B.S.A. course, continuing with the second course four times, and ending with two viewings of the third course. Never saw a single attitude readjustment period for a participant. The vast majority of those who took the second course think (surprise!) it's better than the third course and say so repeatedly. They include five of our District Chairmen. Very difficult to readjust. Wouldn't even try. But you make it sound like great fun, Rick. (Oh, the exclusively 21st Century WB'ers think that's the best course. You can ask me what gent who took Wood Badge in 1964 thinks. Warning! They "let" him be CD for a 21st Century course.)

 

By the way, hardly anyone took Wood Badge from 1948-1971 and relatively few until the latest course. So Wood Badge in it's second iteration as the instrument of Scouting's demise from the true path after 1916 is far-fetched on that ground alone. Heck, Wb didn't start here until the process was over thirty years along.

 

3. NYLT is said to be "junior Wood Badge." I think that is incorrect in many positive and significant ways, but NYLT is all about Patrols. The participants study, play, eat, and sleep separately as patrols. The patrols are part of a boy-led (this year, youth led) troop. James West would be horrified. (Hear Darth Vader breathing?)

 

4. Your comments on training of Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters over time is, as it has been before, misleading at best. Do we really have to go over this again, Rick? I can probably dredge up the posts. I would hate to because the current Scoutmaster Specific syllabus is, in many respects, horrible - boring and impossible to cover in "interactive discussion" in the time allotted. THAT is the legitimate hit on it.

 

5. It was the war on outdoor program that drove the boys away in the early 1970's -- and 1/3 of the adults. You can't even give away the wretched Handbook of the day with its "urban-centered" Scouting. It's good that people like you are around to watch for any sign they are trying that again. Everyone should be FORCED to read that handbook as a cautionary example.

 

But now, Scouting faces a host of barriers to success, especially barriers to recruiting adults. No one seems to want to join anything. Ask the American Bowling Congress, Elks, or Masons. Summing it up as "only" lack of dedication to the Patrol Method (or due to Wood Badge) is simplistic at best, Rick. Otherwise that competing "traditional Scouting" would have run the table. How is it doing?

 

6. Truly outdoor methods are not what they were in 1916 - when Scouting was relatively weak movement and it's literature full of laughably inaccurate information. Oh how they had changed -- for the worse you would say -- by the "Golden Age of Scouting" when I, and 2/3 of all boys, spent some time in the program. Forget whether you are right about interpreting the language of the Charter about "methods." The far different methods of the 50's and 60's seemed to work fine - far better than 1916 in terms of attracting many, many more boys.

 

7. BP wrote repeatedly that the purpose of Scouting included training in character and citizenship surrounded by the bait of the outdoor program. His words have been posted here and can be again as needed.

 

 

You can try to influence what is going on towards what you see as the better way, give up, or denounce an nauseam. I see you have not given up. Good. But any lesson that begins with name-calling has a reduced chance of taking -- even with those in the middle who may be convinced.

 

 

[Kudu]

Tahawk,

 

I am involved in another Scouting project now so I must limit my Scouter.Com involvement to non-controversial informational posts.

 

But, yes, I would like at a later date to debate your seven points. Especially the difference between the three "Purposes" of Scouting (a statute), and the so-called "Methods of Scouting" (a changing theory).

 

A history of Scouting method theory can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

In the meantime I would be interested in your insights into the "1968 Wood Badge Training Notebook" cited in the "Traditional Wood Badge" thread:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301440'>http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301440

 

I can't find any mention of Thursday's program.

 

The notes were not only required, but reviewed by a Staffer. So either the participant did not date Thursday's notes (on Monday the Staffer reviewing his Notebook wrote: "It would be helpful to you if you put a date on the pages"); OR Thursday was a day of "practical hands-on" activities (such as the Wood Badge Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight).

 

If I read your post correctly, you at least "witnessed" your local Wood Badge course in the 1960s. I did not. So if you can solve the Thursday mystery and comment in the following thread, I would be grateful:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301440

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

Scuba Diving Merit Badge:

http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

 

 

[TAHAWK]

First, as a 15-year-old I was to display myself as a reminder that boys (We were not "youth" at that time.) were capable of responsibility and, otherwise, fetch and carry as directed by real Staff - especially the QM. It all went by in a blur. But I have a bin full of syllabii, and I'll check next Tuesday when I'm at the Museum.

 

Next, I thought your comment on your site about BSA not getting with the Patrol Method early on was interesting. We have already discussed in years past how BP didn't see the value of elected PL's for many years. That's not surprising for a Victorian crown loyalist from the ruling classes.

 

Compare:

 

"A Scout Master speaking of his Scout work and troop management says: 'I try to keep myself in the background, as much as possible. I have insisted on the boys who join my troop knowing what the purposes and objective of Scouting really is. I have made them enroll properly and I am making them do the work of the patrol and troop in their own way.' This Scout Master's advice is the solution to every problem that can come up in Scouting."

Handbook for Scout Masters, Boy Scouts of America, 1st Ed. 1914, at p. 89.

 

"Having properly instructed the members of the new troop the next step is to perfect the patrol organization. The necessary thing in the formation of the patrol is the appointment or election of a patrol leader . . . . [T]he best way perhaps is to let the boys appoint or elect their own leaders. The patrol formation is directly based upon the gang idea, and is in reality an organized gang under boy leadership and adult supervision. . . . t is better for the boys to elect their own leader as this is the natural leader-type who is most likely to be selected by them."

Id. at 114.

 

"The Patrol Leader usually presides at all patrol meetings."

Id.

 

"At a troop meeting the senior patrol leader [in seniority] usually presides . . . ."

Id. at 115.

"When the Patrol Leader occupies this latter position he is usually designated as the Troop Leader."

Id. at 142.

 

"The Patrol Leader should be given full charge of developing and carrying out the activities assigned to the Scouts under him." Id. at 141.

 

So if the authors of this first Scout Master Handbook had entirely missed the "Patrol Method," as you claim on your website, they seem to have been in the neighborhood. At least.

 

An American preference for elected leaders seems appropriate to the American experience.

 

 

[Kudu]

My point exactly: The cutting edge BSA "leadership" theory of the day took away what Baden-Powell called "real responsibility" (unsupervised Patrol Hikes and Overnights), and replaced it with "elected leaders" on a very short leash.

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

I notice that for once Kudu didn't conclude his post with his customary "Scouting from 300 feet."

 

Now why is that?

 

I suppose it's because Kudu's own standard isn't unsupervised patrol camping. His standard is having adult leaders within about 300 feet or more who can provide training and supervision as needed.

 

His own standard conforms to the rules established by the Chief Scout Executive these days.

 

 

And frankly, Scoutmaster's needn't ape the ideas of Baden Powell. The Chief Scout Executive's rules for Scouting permit a variety of different kinds of Boy Scout Programs, and parents and leaders are entitled to choose from among the programs offered in their area or start their own.

 

If some families wish to run a unit that functions as an Eagle mill, they can do so.

 

If they like Kudu's style of Boy Scouts, they can join his troop, which has substantial freedom to operate the way they wish. They can join another unit in their area with a program they like, or start their own.

 

 

The one thing we can safely conclude is that in Boy Scouts, it's not Kudu's way or the highway. Despite the implications of Kudu's posts, Boy Scout troops are not bound by Kudu's bright ideas, the bright ideas of Baden Powell, or the bright ideas of the BSA Charter. They have substantial freedom to provide Boy Scouts as they choose and prefer.

[TAHAWK]

"My point exactly: The cutting edge BSA "leadership" theory of the day took away what Baden-Powell called "real responsibility" (unsupervised Patrol Hikes and Overnights), and replaced it with "elected leaders" on a very short leash. "

 

Yes, Rick, there is, and has always been, an adult role in Scouting. How "short" or long the "leash" of adult supervision was supposed to be depended on the situation. On Patrol hikes, the 1913 policy was that an adult be present. HBSM, 1st ed. 1913, at p.p. 142-143. Today, the policy is that two adults should be present. In between, the adult supervision called for by policy has waxed and waned.

 

Policy, by the way, varied without relation to the absence of or multiple changes in Wood Badge over 62+ years.

 

As noted, practice has been all over the lot.