Question about 21CWB

[Kudu]

magic823 writes:

 

To go off on a semi-tangent, the problem I see with Scouting today is they are battling issues and things they don't need to and have lost the focus on the things that bring boys to scouting.

 

Don't get distracted.

 

The BSA stands on principle, proud of the millions of boys that Leadership Development's "modern" war on Scoutcraft has driven out of Scouting.

 

In regard to membership issues, Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca came out swinging: "It's time to reintroduce the American people to the Boy Scouts and quit letting other people define us."

 

Everyone got so weepy about the new CSE's courageous stand that they completely ignored how Mr. Mazzuca actually "defined us" in that same interview, boasting about how CEOs admire the "state-of-the-art" techniques of Wood Badge that replace Scoutcraft with "Character and Leadership:"

 

"Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men...

 

You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character."

 

Not to mention his campaign to recruit 100,000 Hispanic kids a year who hate camping as much as BSA millionaires do.

 

It is more productive to concentrate on how how similar our current CSE's rhetoric is to Leadership Development's intentional destruction of Wood Badge, Scoutcraft, and the Patrol Method in 1965-1972, and our subsequent loss of two million (2,000,000) Boy Scouts.

 

See, for instance, the Wood Badge process of replacing Scoutcraft with Character and Leadership in White Stag's own version of that history ("1965"):

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

1972: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill."

 

http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm

 

2010: "Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in character development and leadership skill growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us."

 

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

 

 

[acco40]

I think we have a few too many conspiracy theorists.

 

What do the Wood Badge beads supposed to represent? That a person has gone through the WB course and fulfilled his ticket. So those who have done either the pre 21st Century WB or the current WB may wear the beads. So lets say I took Cub Scout WB in 1954 and now want to take the 21st Century WB course. I enroll, I take the course. I have not completed my ticket yet. Should I wear the beads? No, not until I've completed my ticket. They are not taking away the old beads.

 

I completely disagree with Kudu on the purpose of Scouting. The outdoors is a method and should not be eliminated but it is not an aim. As a parent, I wanted my sons to learn character, citizenship and personal fitness. Yes, there would be raised eyebrows if after announcing that he was an Eagle scout he proclaimed he had no idea how to tie a taut-line hitch.

 

Leadership, like the outdoors is a method - not an end goal. Neither should be eliminated. Now, how does the BSA attract boys (and possibly girls?)? It is a business with popular grass roots support. Some do not want to stray away from the traditional Scoutcraft orientation. I agree to an extent but the fact that semaphore, Morse code, beekeeping etc. are no long emphasized does not upset me in the least. How to orient a map a compass are good to keep in the requirements area IMO but the addition of GPS usage is great too.

 

To be good Scouters that interface with the boys we need to have skills in two areas - Scout skills yes, but also such "people skills" as leadership, group dynamics, organizational skills, etc. Having one without the other is not good but I'd rather have a Scoutmaster for my son who was more lacking in the Scout skills area than the "people skills" area. After all, if we expect 12 year olds to master 1st Class skills, I don't think the adults should struggle with them too much without formal training.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[BadenP]

This is a real dilemma in todays Scouting, is there any real value in WB21 as compared to the original WB? To those who never had the opportunity to take the original WB it is hard to describe the differences in the aims and purposes of each one. Now National dictating that any adult leader serving as SM or staff at Jamboree is now REQUIRED to have completed WB21 is just plain ludicrous. Having completed both WB classes I can tell you, compared to the original the new WB gives you a whole lot less of worthwhile information that you can really use or even need in your troop, IMO.

 

National seems to be trying to flex its muscle and starting to dictate on a much greater scale how and what must be done on the local level, as far as type of required trainings, program content, etc. The sad part is that boy scout numbers as well as troop numbers still continue to drop, turnover of boy scout adult leaders is much quicker and more numerous than in the past. WB21C is not the answer for any of the problems the scouting program is currently experiencing, it is nothing more than a placebo that does nothing to correct the situation. Kudu you are very correct on so many of your points.

[magic823]

The bottom line is boys get into to scouting to have fun. As defined in most people minds, the fun of Scouting is camping and the outdoors. Anything that takes away from that fun will be a deterent to membership. Learning leadership from anything resembling a class was hard enough in my MBA program (and I had the reward of my Masters at the end of it). I can't see boys in this age of high stimulous activities staying around through it.

 

As I look for a troop for my grandson to be involved with, a strong outdoor program and a boy led troop are the two things I'm looking for.

 

Steve

[Eagle92]

Looking at 2013 Jambo requirements for leaders and staff, WB21C is not mentioned. From here https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/Registration.aspx

 

SCOUTMASTER QUALIFICATIONS

All Jamboree Scoutmasters, First, Second and Third Assistant Scoutmasters must meet the following requirements:

 

Must have a current BSA membership with a Boy Scout troop or Varsity Scout team.

 

Scoutmasters must be at least 21 years of age by the first day of the jamboree.

 

For Third Assistant Scoutmasters, be at least 18 years of age by the first day of the jamboree but not yet 21 years of age by the last day of the jamboree.

 

Be currently serving as a Scoutmaster or Varsity Coach.

 

For Second and Third Assistant Scoutmasters, be currently serving in any adult troop or team leadership position.

 

Completed Scoutmaster or Varsity Scout Coach leader specific training.

 

Completed Youth Protection Training within one year of the first day of the jamboree.

 

Be able to serve as a role model of physical fitness. Have participated in the pre-jamboree training experience.

 

Have filed a Jamboree Personal Health and Medical record with the council jamboree committee before the pre-jamboree training.

 

Be approved by the local council.

 

Submit all registration fees per the local council's payment schedule.

 

VENTURING ADVISOR QUALIFICATIONS

Venturing Advisors must meet the following requirements:

 

Must have a current BSA membership with a Venturing crew.

 

Be at least 21 years of age by the first day of the jamboree.

 

Completed Venturing Leader Specific training.

 

Completed Youth Protection training within one year of the first day of the jamboree.

 

Be actively serving as a crew Advisor.

 

Be able to serve as a role model of physical fitness. Have participated in the pre-jamboree training experience.

 

Have filed a Personal Health and Medical Record before the pre-jamboree training with the council jamboree committee.

 

Be approved by the local council.

 

Submit all registration fees per the local council's payment schedule.

 

staff qualifications

Must have a current BSA membership.

 

Completed Youth Protection Training within one year of the first day of the jamboree.

 

Ability to arrive on site at the jamboree up to but not limited to one week before the jamboree as deemed necessary by the service director of the area selected to serve in to receive training and assist in the final preparations for troop arrivals.

 

Be at least 16 years of age by the first day of the jamboree.

 

Submit all registration fees per the published payment schedule.

 

Complete any jamboree-specific training as deemed necessary by the service director of the area selected to serve in.

 

File a Personal Health and Medical Record as instructed by the deadline.

 

Be able to serve as a role model of physical fitness.

[OldGreyEagle]

Just to be clear, when we say "original Wood Badge" are we talking about the syllabus B-P used in the original course in Gilwell Park, or the Pre-1972 Course, the Post-1972, or the Course that 21CWB replaced.

 

I may be off on how many Wood Badge curriculums there have been, but when one says "Old Wood Badge" one should specify what era one is referring. As Kudu is fond of telling us, Bill Harcourt was no fan of the Post 1972 Course, and neither is he

[magic823]

Wish I could go through B-P orginal Woodbadge course. Now that would be fun!

 

Steve

[Kudu]

acco40 writes:

 

I completely disagree with Kudu on the purpose of Scouting.

 

The "Three Purposes of Scouting" are clearly defined by our Congressional Charter, the statute by which the government favors our religious corporation with a monopoly on Scouting:

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, [1.] the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, [2.] to train them in scoutcraft, and [3.] to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_federal_charter.htm

 

So clearly our monopoly was imposed on the American people with the understanding that the mastery of Scoutcraft is one of the Three Purposes of Scouting, not a mere "Method" as the cult of Leadership Development would have us believe.

 

acco40 writes:

 

After all, if we expect 12 year olds to master 1st Class skills, I don't think the adults should struggle with them too much without formal training.

 

Cub Scout moms and dads who have never been camping can now "master" First Class skills in an IOLS weekend, just as ten-year-old crossovers can "master" First Class in a week of summer camp only because Wood Badge killed applied Scoutcraft (what Hillcourt called the "Real" Patrol Method).

 

There is no longer any real-world downside when indoor Webelos III leaders sign off First Class because our "21st century" goal is to produce "people skills" managers: Eagle Scouts who have never walked into the woods with a pack on their back.

 

In contrast, "the methods that were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916" included the First Class Journey, described by Baden-Powell as:

 

(9) Journey. Go on foot or row a boat, alone or with another Scout, for a total distance of fourteen miles, or ride an animal or bicycle (not motor) a distance of thirty miles; he must write a short report of the journey with special attention to any points to which he may be directed by the Examiner or his Scoutmaster (a route map of the journey is not required). The journey should occupy about twenty-four hours and camping kit for the night must be taken and used. Whenever practicable, the camp site must be of the Scout's own choosing, and not where other Scouts are camping. His S.M. or Examiner may indicate the route and suggest the approximate area but not the actual position where he will make his camp. In abnormal circumstances the L.A. may give permission for the paragraph to be made easier to exceptional cases. This test should normally be the final one taken for the First -Class badge.

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm

 

The Ameican version can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

 

Leadership Development cancelled Patrol Leader Training in 1972 so that "people skills" wanna-bes can pretend to be "Patrol Leaders" for six months without ever "leading" their Patrols from the parking lot to a nice Cub Scout family camping venue without the benefit of close Webelos III adult supervision.

 

Leadership Development has replaced the Scoutcraft Purpose of Scouting (physical skills that can be measured objectively), with the BSA's two new de-facto "goals" of Scouting: "Character and Leadership" (opinion skills that can only be measured subjectively).

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Just to be clear, when we say "original Wood Badge" are we talking about the syllabus B-P used in the original course in Gilwell Park, or the Pre-1972 Course...

 

magic823 writes:

 

Wish I could go through B-P orginal Woodbadge course. Now that would be fun!

 

For the curious:

 

1) The required Wood Badge Notebook (including Staff comments) from a Hillcourt Wood Badge Course in 1968:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm

 

2) Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

3) Circa 1965 Baden-Powell Wood Badge Scoutcraft (Required for the Scoutcraft Bead):

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/leader/index.htm

 

4) The Gilwell Patrol Leader Training Course:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell/index.htm

 

5) Baden-Powell's 1914 Four Weekend, pre-Wood Badge Course:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/trainer/1914_program.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet:

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I'm taking up a collection to send Kudu ro WB21C. Let me know if you'd like to make a contribution.

[acco40]

In the future let's just post to the old threads instead of rehashing.

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=292540#id_292761

 

When I was a Scoutmaster for Jambo (2005) Wood Badge training was considered a plus but not mandatory. For 2010/13 the only addition I saw (and I'm all for it) was the "don't be a fat slob" requirement.

 

I think folks are missing the point. It's not an either/or situation. Think of a middle school or high school teacher. Yes they need to know subject matter (Scout skills) but they also need to know about childhood development, adolescent behavior, etc. (WB 21st Century). Which one is more important? That's debateable. Both are needed. Learning one doesn't preclude the other.

 

WB 21st Century does not encourage folks to not have camping experience. When I took the first WB for the 21st Century course (the year it came out) camping was involved. I still don't understand why you feel WB "killed" Scoutcraft. Does teaching my daughter algebra "kill" her English skills?

 

Look at the current Scoutmaster Handbook. It states that Scoutmasters should be familiar/comfortable with the outdoors. Also, the purpose of IOLS training, and I've been the course director for it, it two fold. First, it gives Scouters practical outdoor skills needed to lead Scouts. It gives the participants hands-on training so that they can feel comfortable working with and instructing the boys. Second, the "learn by doing" exposes the adults to what we expect of the boys as well as doing it in a patrol fashion.

 

I'm curious, exactly what skill do you feel is so difficult that an average intelligence, average physically capable adult would have difficulty completing in a weekend IOLS course? Have I tied all the knots required for Tenderfoot through first class? Yes. Have I taught all those knots? Yes. Do I need to refresh myself before a class each time for certain knots? Yes! Have I then mastered that skill? I'm guessing we may get different responses on that one.

 

Now, my formal education is in engineering and more theoretical than hands on. So, I admit I'm not the Scoutmaster with thirty years of knife, axe, orienteering, knot tying, etc. experience? No. Had I camped, canoed, cooked, studied first aid before I became involved with Scouting? Yes! Scouting experiences helped me learn more about water filtration/sterilization (what works best, what doesn't), backpacking and a few other specialized areas (monkey fist!) but I feel what I brought to the table that helped the most was my knowledge of boys, adolescents, the BSA program itself, child development, leadership skills, teaching techniques, etc. What I wish the BSA would teach Scouters is how to deal with Scout parents!

[John-in-KC]

Steve, I cannot imagine any Troop in Idaho not having a string outdoor program. You're in one of the areas of our great Nation that God designed for recreation :-D

 

Even so, I think your target is spot on!

 

I think your other criterion, of a Troop that has strong, working youth leadership, is also spot on.

 

Finally, I hope you also find a place where the boys are genuine friends to each other.

 

Enjoy the second round of taking a kid through the program.

[BadenP]

acco

Every year the boy scouts seem to get further and further away from traditional scoutcraft or outdoor skills, especially in the training of its leaders, thanks in large part to the "Mazzuca Plan". "Be familiar with the outdoors", can mean anything but not necessarily competent in teaching those skills to the youth. You can go sit in your own backyard and become "familiar with the outdoors." WB21C reminds me of the same logic, management style is the new buzzword for WB today, the sylabus is badly written and tedious, the trainers do an average to extremely poor job in delivery of the information, but if you want to be bored out of your mind or to catch up on your sleep then WB21C is for you. IOLS is also a poor substitute and that too has been so watered down with its generic approach to all programs. You would become better informed and more competent reading an old Scout Fieldbook.

[Kudu]

acco40 writes:

 

I still don't understand why you feel WB "killed" Scoutcraft.

 

Wood Badge killed APPLIED Scoutcraft: The ability to move a Patrol through the backwoods without adult supervision.

 

acco40 writes:

 

Also, the purpose of IOLS training, and I've been the course director for it, it two fold.

 

So have I, four-fold.

 

acco40 writes:

 

First, it gives Scouters practical outdoor skills needed to lead Scouts. It gives the participants hands-on training so that they can feel comfortable working with and instructing the boys.

 

Yes, as opposed to Scouters teaching Patrol Leaders how to be comfortable leading Scouts into the backwoods without adult supervision.

 

acco40 writes:

 

Second, the "learn by doing" exposes the adults to what we expect of the boys as well as doing it in a patrol fashion.

 

Fake Patrol fashion.

 

Did you ever set aside enough time in your IOLS courses for groups of participants to travel to separate remote areas of the camp and set up their Patrol for a night? How about reserving a day for each Patrol to conduct its own Patrol Hike?

 

If so, then I admit your IOLS participants "learned by doing in a Patrol fashion" better than mine did, and therefore your leadership skills are indeed awesome.

 

If not, did you at least separate the Patrols by Baden-Powell's 300 feet (the minimum for Troop -- as opposed to Patrol -- Camping)?

 

If so, did you explain why they should take the practice back to their home Troops?

 

acco40 writes:

 

I'm curious, exactly what skill do you feel is so difficult that an average intelligence, average physically capable adult would have difficulty completing in a weekend IOLS course?

 

The ability to run Hillcourt's six month Patrol Leader Training course:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

acco40 writes:

 

Have I tied all the knots required for Tenderfoot through first class?

 

My point exactly: IOLS is just a "How to Sign off Tenderfoot - First Class" course, what the cult of Leadership likes to trivialize as the "first year program."

 

The whole point of Applied Scoutcraft (what Hillcourt called "Real Patrols") is to teach Patrol Leaders the skills they need to hike and camp without adult supervision.

 

How many Webelos III dads are capable of doing that after IOLS? Maybe one in a thousand? Even so, that one in a thousand got his skills somewhere other than IOLS and Wood Badge, didn't he?

 

acco40 writes:

 

Does teaching my daughter algebra "kill" her English skills?

 

A better analogy is teaching your daughter algebra in a BSA Lifeguard course.

 

If Wood Badge ever got its hooks into BSA Lifeguard Training we would have exactly the same situation as we have now with Webelos III for the 21st Century: Leadership cult leaders insisting that we replace the ability to swim with the stuff you love so much: childhood development, adolescent behavior, leadership skills, and teaching techniques because, after all, they were "signed off" on swimming in the "first year" program.

 

Wood Badge Den Leaders would then do what they do so well: Join health & safety committees and "modernize" the GTSS to limit teenagers to baby pools and splash pads so that every boy who is afraid of the water can "learn how to be a leader" by serving as a BSA Lifeguard.

 

After all it is more important for BSA Lifeguards to master those precious "people skills" than to know how to swim, right?

 

Would that "kill" BSA Swimming?

 

Not any more than Wood Badge has killed the Patrol Method

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[magic823]

"Steve, I cannot imagine any Troop in Idaho not having a string outdoor program. You're in one of the areas of our great Nation that God designed for recreation :-D"

 

Sad, but that isn't the case. I grew up in Idaho and the troop I was in rarely went camping. I was the only Eagle Scout in a 12 year period from that troop. It was an LDS troop, so I didn't have the option of finding a good one. The so called Scoutmasters that would be fostered on us would turn us loose to play basketball after the opening. We finally got a semi-decent SM that took us backpacking one summer in lue of summer camp (a 5 mile trip - camping at a lake and then back after a couple of days). Since I needed Lifesaving and it was only offered at summer camp, I found other LDS troops that weren't going to camp, found their boys that wanted to go, found leaders to take us, and organized it myself. I'm more proud of doing that as a 14 year old than with my later eagle project.

 

The one thing I swore is that I would never have my sons go to an LDS troop. As a district camporee chairman and OA Chapter Advisor, I had the opportunity to get to know all the troops in the district. In the Green River of the Chief Seattle Council, in my option, there wasn't a LDS troop worth the paper its charter was printed on. Has that changed? I don't know yet. The one thing most LDS troops have against them is the boys get yanked up to Varsity Scouts just when they could provide leadership to the Scouts and typically there isn't enough boys in a troop (ward) to have an effective troop.

 

Even being here in Idaho, I see a lot of troops than only car camp, which is fine if that's all you want. I want my Grandson to get to backpack with a troop.

[John-in-KC]

Steve,

 

I am so sorry for what you described. All I can say is take your time and ask the questions you need to before you bring your grandson to visit the Troop with you.

 

Again, this may be where the networking comes in, if you have time before your grandson is ready to move across. I've found this past decade that leaders with strong outdoor programs and strong use of the Patrol Method do stand out from the rest of a District.

 

Good hunting!