Resentment about needing to get trained?!

[Eagle92]

HICO,

 

Would you be OK with a "test out" option, i.e. for IOLS demonstrating the skills to a trainer, for certification?

 

I know some organizations will allow a 'test out" or "challenge" so you don't have to recertify by takign the entire course again.

[Eagle732]

I have seen the quality of training decline in my area as the requirement to have it come into effect. SM training was 40 hours plus an ILOS weekend several years ago when it was not required. Now its required and is one weekend and 12 hours, condensed to make it easier for the ones who need it to meet rechartering requirements.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Condensing is not new due the the manditory requirement. That has gone on since it went for SM fundamentals to IOLS.. Then although the syllabus has not condensed it I know our council kept on shaving off time.. It got down to a one day course with no overnight.. Now that it is manditory, they have gone up to following the requirements because they believe they have a captive audience.

 

I got shot down in my council to do IOLS, the Council training chair & other districts think that forcing you to spending time on commoradery is more important then respecting those with knowledge for the time & effort they give to Scouting.. So they want them to spend time..

 

I am working on another idea, which got some excitement from others, but they needed to pitch it to the Council Training Chair.. I will need to ask how it went, because no one has told me, but I fear the no news this time is bad news.

[Eagle92]

Moose,

 

One thing you may consider in regards to IOLS and those who could test out if your council allowed it, don't get me started on that one, is to get them on staff for IOLS.

 

Good friend of mine never went through IOLS, despite being a 3 beader (went to WB as a CM), until he served on summer camp staff with the assignment to teach SM Specific and IOLS all summer to the new SMs and ASMs.

 

 

So he is finally "Trained" as an ASM and Crew Adviser.

[HICO_Eagle]

Personally, I'd be okay with a "test out" option but I'm still afraid that the "mandatory" label will still turn off the additional adults we'd like to get involved in the program. Bear in mind, I've already committed to Scouting for decades -- what I'm afraid we'll lose are the new parents and young adults that want to get involved again but don't have multiple weekends to commit to mandatory training. I still think the best route is to make these courses "highly encouraged" and have the DEs make the rounds to troop committees to explain the benefits of the courses. I don't think much of training for training's sake and despise the professional educators who push it. Training should be there to educate the participant -- and a lot of BSA's current training is for box-checking, not education, IMHO.

[moosetracker]

Eagle92 - In a way that is what I am proposing.. That they be the trainers.. But in a train the trainer course.. The only ones allowed in would be those that could have tested out..

 

I will group 8 of them together for a patrol, maybe putting a 2 per unit limit, so that they are meeting others, and passing different ideas around..

 

But what I want to do is just throw the patrol the IOLS book, I will attend on whatever date they choose, (or someone else from my training team if I am unavailable).. But I do nothing but enjoy the day.. They organize through email the meals, and who will do what course, and organize what they would need to bring (compass, flag & pole etc..)..

 

I figure each of the 8 could take a course (or 2 if small).. If they need only one, get it from their troop supplies, if each need it communicate to others to bring their compass.. For "expirenced Scouters" accept for communicating with each other, this should be no harder then organizing a camporee, where they are asked to bring supplies like first aid kits, poles, rope etc.. And are required to organize the patrol meal, buy it and make sure they have the items to prepare it.

 

Some more work on through email for them to coordinate, but shorter times for the course. I figure this could be cut down to 5 to 7 hours..

 

Because they do not need to teach each other knots, someone do a quick overview, then everyone do the knots and check each other over.. Really a quick overview and voluntary discussion of things that is slightly different then the norm that they may have found makes the process easier for their units, on most items... They can check each others backpacks over and make suggestions to each other about things that may help the other in organizing it.. The food prep etc, will really be done over the emails, all they need to do is cook it (an feed their patrol as well as me something splendid!!)

 

The level does not need to be basic, the knowledge between them will be high, and they may learn something from each other expierenced leader to expierenced leader.. The Council Training Chair has her commeradery..

 

I think the only other thing I needed to do was wait to pronounce them trained until the next camporee.. (at IOLS held during Camporees, we let them tent with their units anyway..) So they just need to tent with their unit at the Camporee and I can pronounce them trained..

 

Well I still need to get this passed by council, because I am shortening the time for each subject matter.. The DE that oversees the training for the council loved the idea, as well as my DE.. It was just getting it passed by the Council Training Chair.

 

I plan

[Eagle732]

Good luck with your plan moosetracker, I hope someone comes up with a workable solution.

 

We have not got to the "all leaders required to be fully trained" yet. Currently it's SM and CC only, plus YP for all registered. So our condensed training does not yet have a captive audience.

 

When mandatory full training becomes fully implemented at the end of 2011 for us, my troop will loose 2 ASMs. Both 19 year old Eagles who are full time out of state college students who help out when they're home on break. Hey maybe they can sign up as BSA Alumni!

[Eagle92]

'732,

 

I've been told all specific courses will be online in the very near future, so they may be able to do it online when it comes out.

 

maybe they can have their T-2-1 outdoor skills tested next time they are in town so they can test out of IOLS?

 

or get them registered int eh College Scouter Reserve. Only training they would need is YP.

[moosetracker]

Yeah.. Not counting any Webloes who want the training early, and those who are taking the training so they are prepared for when a slot opens in their troop for ASM (but are not yet).. I counted that in my district alone I have 97 SM's & ASM's in need of training.. I guess the Manditory for all isn't there next year so I thought I had two years, but they wrapped it into the quality unit or unit of honor or something, so I have alot wanting to do it this year.

 

I didn't even think about the college students who are not home for typical times the Training.. I do not know if our summer camps offer IOLS (I need to check that for an option for my volunteers..) But I do have people who can't do weekends due to work issues.. So if they are skilled at scoutcraft already, I would only need to group 8 people with similar schedule issues, and they can come up with their date that is convient for them. Therefore College students eagles could band together and do theirs in the summer.

 

If this can get approval, I almost think this would be more fun for the participants, and it solves the issue of coming up with the level of skill you expect them at to test out.. But, I do need to screen (as if I was looking for trainers for my normal IOLS training).. I don't want people with little skills trying to sneak in because it is faster paced, then slowing the group down because they really do not have the skills to whip through things without hands on training to learn it.

 

Don't know how long I will keep this post, I think I am rocking the boat too much.. But, I just don't understand this attitude of not doing everything in your power to help our volunteers meet the requirements, as long as it is not cheating the system and rubber stamping them through..

[Eagle732]

Considering what most college aged Scouts are involved with I doubt that many take the time to do anything but the very minimal in training. You might get them to take YP but most will just drop. With mandatory training we won't be able to carry them on the books for a few years until they are done with school in the hopes they will come back and be a part of the troop again.

 

Most of the Scouts I know in college take a full load of credits, work part time, take part in extracurricular activities such as sports or clubs, some of which are attached to scholarships. Can't blame them for having priorities other than Scouting. I know when I was in college, out of state and paying my own way, that Scouting was not part of my life.

[Eagle92]

'732,

 

You may be surprised. We have one troop in my area that has more ASMs than scouts, witht he bulk of the ASMs being in the 18-21 range! Whenever college is out, they get together with the troop and go somewhere. The've been to Philmont, AT, etc.

[UCEagle72]

The simplest solution for college-age Scouters, is to form a Venturing Crew and register them there.

 

No need to for adult training, not even YPT, and they are able to continue their association with Scouting.

 

And, they can still associate with the Troop.

 

Plus, the DE will be over-joyed to show another new unit on his roster.

 

 

 

 

 

[desertrat77]

Most folks don't resent training.

 

They will, however, resent being direspected.

 

Disrespect comes in the forms of:

 

- Being told something is "mandatory" -- only to fulfill a higher hq imperative at the leaders' expense

- Disregarding leaders' previous experience

- Redundant, irrelevant course material

- Pendantic or condescending instructors

- Taking X days to teach a course that could be taught in a much shorter time (for example)

 

Your council may have none of these issues, some, or all.

 

But if we are "selling a product" and folks don't want to come in the door, we have to be willing to ask why AND be willing to change.

[drmbear]

I ran Troop Leadership Development and Troop Leadership Training for our Council as a youth back in the 70's. That was in the days when we were teaching the leadership skills. One of the most important of the eleven leadership skills is called "Managing Learning." One of the key elements of that is making sure you figure out what the student already knows before you start teaching. I've been very frustrated with all adult leader training that NEVER starts with figuring out a starting point, and I'd say 90 percent of the time doesn't even include an evaluation process, not only for how well the student learned but also for how the trainer did so it can be improved next time. I think even some of these merit badge training discussions could be solved with more people actually understanding and using those old leadership skills.

[desertrat77]

Drmbear, I'm with you.

 

One-size-fits-all-training is rarely beneficial for training cadre or participant. It only satisfies the middle management training staffer tracking "percent trained" stats.

 

Now that you mention it, I can't remember being asked to evaluate a BSA training course. And I've seen the spectrum over the years as a military guy traveling about.

 

Also, a common vibe is "this is the training, we're the training cadre, and we know best"--even brand new scouters are turned off by this. They may be new to scouting, but they are no means clueless--they have skills from parenting, previous scouting, professional credentials, employment, etc. Even if the course material is somewhat inflexible, training cadres CAN control many aspects of of the training session, to include their attitude, and course content.