Rules? What Rules?

[OldGreyEagle]

yeah, about that 5%, is my 5 the same as yours?

 

"But just because we follow them, does not mean they are good rules, make any sense or are of any actual value.""

 

Actually that sounds like about 95-96% of the US Code, to my knowledge of course

 

[Scoutfish]

Let me expand on that:

 

BB Guns for example.

 

Can only shoot them at Council events - well district too, but our district only does B gun at council events - so basically the same thing in my case.

 

At BSA camp, we had 1 adult who was running the BB gun range with the help of a 1st class scout. I have no doubt about thayt scouts ability, but still, under 18 years old. Looked to be maybe 13 or 14, but wouldn't bet a dollar on it.

 

The instructor is also watching a line of 50 scouts while simutaneously watching and instructing the 8 boys who are on the firing line, with their dads. The dads think since they are male, they are automatically qualified NRA master marksmen or something. They create more safety violations in 5 mins that almost all the Cub Scouts combined.

 

After ALL the Cub Scouts shot their 10 rounds,and everybody set their guns down, the scouts and parents were handed a new target to pin up when they - the scouts went onto the range to retrieve their own target. Not sure who watched the scouts who were retrieveing - the instructor or the 1st class scout, but whoever it was, the other was watching the new boys who were being let to the firing positions.

 

 

 

Now in comparison, the year we had BB gun at our pack campout, we had a NRA certified trainer, and 7 dads with extensive ( and practical)( police, instructors, wildlife resouce officers) knowledge of BB guns and firenarms.

 

Now let me go ahead and explain..Our Camping Chair said that he checked and it was okay to have BB gun at a pack campout due to our NRA trained leader.. I was also only a parent back then and didn't know that it wasn't allowed.

 

We since discoverd that the camp chair ( who is no longer with us) lied or "misunderstood" what the SE said.

 

But, when we did happen to "don't intentionally break the rules" we had only 3 boys shoot at a time, and had an individual adult leader with each boy, an instructor and a seperate designated range safety officer...for a total of 5 adult leaders per 3 scouts shooting. We fetched the targets to keep all scouts off the range.

 

Now, compare the two scenarios, think about the safety factors.

 

The only difference I can possibly come up with: we had to pay $60 per scout and go to a Council camp to be safe in shooting bb guns.

[Scoutfish]

Another difference:

At Council camp, the instructor would tell the boys to pick up the bb guns, chek the safety, cock and remove safety, then fire their shots.

 

At our campout, we gave every single boy - regardless of experience, a short demo on the safety, how to hold the gun , how to cock/load it, and to always leave the safety on until AFTER it was pointed at the target and ready to fire. After you fire, put the safety on befoore you lower it from pointing at the target.

 

 

Now, granted, I do realize that not every pack has the brains to do this, so I honestly don't have an issue with that being a rule.

 

But laser tag? Seriously? These are not the lasers used to cut steel, target missles or anything of that nature. Never heard of a kid getting eye damage from over doing it at laser tag.

 

BB guns, I understand because not every person will take the precautions.

 

But laser tag? The biggest issue I can see is a kid who is so hyped up, he becomes irritating!

[Troop24]

Scoutfish,

 

BartHumphries said this: " "I am assuming that the BSA does not have a problem with scouts running around waving flashlights at each other."

 

That's what I'm saying. As long as you're not "shooting guns at each other", then laser tag should be ok, right? Besides boxy lasers, "pen" ones like http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Pet-LED-Light-Laser-Pointer-Toy-Cat-Dog-Puppy-Kitten-/360314546543?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e46ba96f would seem to be ok too -- they can hardly be called "firearms".

 

Yes, you can do laser tag with "a square flashlight-type box that couldn't possibly be confused for a "firearm", as long as - per the Guide to Safe Scouting - "participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations"..."

 

Here is a shortened link to his above: http://xrl.in/6ljl it does not have a laser tag device included but rather a laser like device that one would use to point out things on a PowerPoint display or tease your cat as it suggests. Do we know for certain that there will be no eye damage as a result of exposure to this item through play in the hands of a Scout? I am not an expert and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I am not qualified to answer but I do not want to be the one explaining to Johnny's parents why he needs a seeing eye dog because I chose to ignore the rules!

[Beavah]

Do we know for certain that there will be no eye damage as a result of exposure to this item through play in the hands of a Scout?

 

Yah, this isn't rocket surgery, eh?

 

If it's a Class II laser device it's fine. If it's a Class IIIb laser device it's still fine, for da type of exposure you'd see in a game of tag.

 

I can't remember how many times I've been accidentally hit in da eyes by someone wielding a laser pointer. More than I can count. Other than bifocals from gettin' older, my vision is just fine, eh?

 

Not sure what this has to do with laser tag though. As I mentioned, laser tag toys don't use lasers, they use infrared television remotes. And yeh can bet that da commercial laser tag center has done its homework on laser safety.

 

Beavah

[Kudu]

qwazse writes:

 

the next time a youth asks me, I'm plagiarizing you ...

 

Scouts should to pretend to kill each other as Baden-Powell and the BSA's Bill Hillcourt intended.

 

Thanks qwazse! I'm glad that I could be of service

 

[begin rant rebuttal]

 

Troop24 writes:

 

I think the point of this thread from the very beginning has been an attempt to justify weaseling out of the rules by saying "Rules, What Rules?"

 

The point of this thread from the very beginning has been to examine the nature of BSA rules.

 

As for your ad hominem assertion that my motivation is to "weasel out" of the rules, you are wrong. When my Scouts want to play laser tag, I show them your politically correct liberal "guideline" against "laser firearms" to illustrate why true conservatives are opposed to our government limiting the rights of its citizens. I explain that in other countries such as England and Germany Scouts have the right to a free market in Scouting that allows them to join a competing Scout corporation.

 

When my citizenship lesson is over, I teach them how to pretend to kill other Scouts using the Wide Game methods that Baden-Powell and the BSA's Congressional Charter intended me to use:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

 

Troop24 writes:

 

Play by the rules or don't play! Seems simple enough to me.

 

Rules, Troop24? What Rules?

 

Rules to you are metaphors. Metaphors for Scoutmaster Minutes, perhaps. You do not really care what the "literal" rules are because you have a romantic vision of the rules. You like the idea of making your Scouts follow the rules, but you weasel out of the tough questions:

 

Where exactly in the OFFICIAL Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (which we all agreed in writing to obey) do you find any mention of infrared-emitting devices, lasers, or your own creative contribution to the debate: "laser type objects"?

 

Troop24 writes:

 

Where along the way does that follow the lines of the Scout Law and the Scout Oath that we all supposedly voluntarily aspire to pass the values of onto the Scouts under our charge?

 

How about the laws of their country?

 

7. A Scout is OBEDIENT. "A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them."

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm

 

Troop24 writes:

 

Boy Scouts of America is a national organization and an Eagle Scout from Seattle should be the same as an Eagle Scout from Key West and so should any rank in between.

 

Standardization was the intent of the Congressional Charter, which set the standard to withstand the erosion of time: The Scoutcraft methods in common practice on June 15, 1916. Among other things, the final test of a First Class Scout's mastery of this Scoutcraft should be the First Class Journey: A hike 7 miles into the woods by himself or with a buddy, camp (at least in B-P's version), and then hike 7 miles out. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

 

Now according to the "rules" that you defend with personal attacks, any cupcake can get an Eagle Badge without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. You pretend to care about adding/subtracting from standards and weakening the overall affect of the advancement process of Scouting across the board, but it is people like you, Troop24, that support the corporate "rules" that defy the Act of Congress written to protect future generations of American children from people like you. People who blindly support corporations that hope to profit from "adding/subtracting from them [the standards of 1916] and weakening the overall affect of the advancement process of Scouting across the board" so as to "broaden the appeal of Scouting" to increase market-share by attracting the parents of boys who do not like Scouting.

 

When the Congressional Charter was written people would say of their worst enemy: "It would take an Act of Congress to get him to do the right thing," but now people like you, Troop24, stick your finger in the eye of an Act of Congress because you like to teach Boy Scouts to just follow orders.

 

You should obey the laws of your country, Troop24. If you think that the Congressional Charter is unfair, then you should try to have that Act of Congress changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying the very highest Law of the Land.

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

 

[end of rant rebuttal]

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

[qwazse]

My apathy towards laser tag and paintball runs pretty high. (I take more pleasure in watching a diminuitive girl in my crew toss a belligerent guy into 3 feet of snow on a night hike.)

 

But, has anybody here who really cares tried to strike the "laser tag" rule from the the G2SS? What would the process of amending it be?

 

I know amendments happen because someone last year changed the age/grade requirements for venturing.

[Beavah]

Yah, quazse, a couple of years ago da Safety Advisory Committee reversed the laser tag rule. There was even a version of G2SS that was published without it. They in turn were reversed by "staffers unknown" in Irving.

 

So da mechanism yeh have left is to

 

1) convince the CORs to shop up and vote as a block at your council annual meeting in January to vote down the slate of officers and national representatives.

2) after three more votes and funding a lawsuit against your council, manage to actually replace the officers and national representatives with ones appointed by National.

3) repeat #1&2, and hope for a different outcome.

4) repeat 1,2, and 3 for a majority of da councils.

5) at the national meeting, get all those council reps to show up and vote down the national slate.

6) after three more votes and funding a lawsuit against da national council, manage to actually replace the officers and board.

7) find da staff responsible for the odd G2SS rules, and move 'em to the mail room at double pay.

8) have the new staff fix da document.

 

Or yeh can just ignore the thing, which is what most do I reckon, or just run "unofficial" outings.

 

 

Beavah

[JMHawkins]

"Do we know for certain that there will be no eye damage as a result of exposure to this item through play in the hands of a Scout?"

 

Can't say for sure about the device you linked to, but an actual "Laser Tag" gun has no chance of eye damage, since it's a blinkin' (so to speak) infrared led, not an actual laser. Heck, shining a flashlight in someone's face is more dangerous to their sight than a laser tagger. The biggest chance of injury from laser taggers is if one boy accidentally clunks the other in the chin with one. So from a pure "safety" standpoint, a real game of Laser Tag with commercially available equipment is less dangerous than the inevitable homespun games the boys will come up with (borrowing dad's laser pointer, etc.).

 

Oh, and Kudu, they definitely are expensive, but they aren't limited to indoors. You can use them outdoors just fine. Done it a few times now for birthday parties (non-BSA events, of course).

 

"Nah, we follow the rules , or at the very least - don't intentionally break them.

 

But just because we follow them, does not mean they are good rules, make any sense or are of any actual value."

 

Yep, a Scout is Obedient, but I think there's got to be an unspoken codicil to that. The people making the rules he is supposed to follow are supposed to be worthy of the Scout giving them that authority and respect. Making dumb rules undermines the effort. Not necessarily saying the simulated firearms rule is dumb, but at the very least it ought to be fully, honestly explained.

 

 

 

[Kudu]

JMHawkins writes:

 

Yep, a Scout is Obedient, but I think there's got to be an unspoken codicil to that.

 

Every Scout knows the Scout Law. But there is an extra point to that Law which is not written but is understood by every Scout. It is this: "A Scout is not a fool." Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys, Yarn 18.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu