Rules? What Rules?

[ScoutBox]

Just got this sent to me today.. great idea. Wish my Council put his information on line like this.

 

http://www.bacarrowhead.org/training.htm

[Kudu]

The destruction of America's Boy Scout program is rooted in the conversion of literal meaning into metaphor.

 

Firearm: A weapon capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant.

 

Gunpowder, in other words.

 

It should be obvious to anyone (who is not involved in a "leadership development" cult) that "laser" tag does not involve gunpowder.

 

Acco40's assertion that examples of firearms include sharks and Barbe dolls "if the intent is to point them at individuals" defines "firearm" as the "intent to point."

 

In other words, "Firearm" is a METAPHOR that makes toys sound "dangerous."

 

Laser: An acronym for light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation

 

It can be argued that projectile devices such as "paintball, dye, or lasers" (and squirt guns) do pose a remote risk of eye injury when used incorrectly, but "laser" tag does not involve lasers:

 

Laser tag: An activity where players attempt to score points with hand-held infrared-emitting targeting devices.

 

In other words "Laser" is a METAPHOR that makes the infrared technology in your tv remote sound "dangerous."

 

Safe: Free from danger or the risk of harm; "a safe trip."

 

The Guide to Safe Scoutings prohibition against laser tag is based on what feminists might consider to be politically correct values for boys. It is NOT based on keeping Scouts free from real danger.

 

In other words, "Safe" is a METAPHOR that makes boys' thoughts sound "dangerous."

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://www.inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

 

Literal: Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words.

 

Metaphor: A figure of speech that constructs an analogy between two things or ideas; the analogy is conveyed by the use of a metaphorical word in place of some other word. For example: "Her eyes were glistening jewels".

 

[Troop24]

BartHumphries says: "Firearms may not be pointed at another person, even if those firearms are "fake" and "shoot" completely harmless "stuff", such as paintball guns, laser guns, etc. But there's nothing wrong with lasers in and of themselves . . ." I wonder how the pilot in this story or the FBI feels about that: http://www2.wsav.com/news/2010/sep/29/fbi-investigates-laser-aimed-savannah-plane-ar-896625/

 

Nothing to worry about when you take a dollar store laser emitting item as it appears many here are referring to and placing it in the hands of teenage boys and allowing them to play tag with it. No worries about damaging their eyesight, no sir!

[acco40]

Kudu - I absolutely agree - laser tag is no more harmful that pointing a television remote a at a person. Kudu - The Guide to Safe Scoutings prohibition against laser tag is based on what feminists might consider to be politically correct values for boys. It is NOT based on keeping Scouts free from real danger.

 

But, that was not the question. The question was, is laser tag allowed? The answer is no, it is not.

 

The BSA is worried about a few things - being to closely associated with the military/armed services and also "guns" - hunting, killing of furry creatures (we can still fish - for now). There are folks who are strident against both of these and to appease them (i.e. boost membership) my guess is that the BSA doesn't want to appear to closely aligned with either the "pro" or "anti" side on these issues.

 

 

[BartHumphries]

Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye or lasers)

acco40, all squares are quadrilaterals but not all quadrilaterals are squares -- some quadrilaterals are instead rectangles or trapezoids. All firearms are prohibited, including firearms which have a laser embedded in them, or which have a laser as the primary component of the firearm. That doesn't mean that all lasers are firearms, or that all lasers of any type are prohibited, in my opinion. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[OldGreyEagle]

Its not that the laser is a firearm, let me say that again, its not that the laser is a firearm, once more, its not that the laser is a fire arm.

 

BSA does not espouse the ethic of aiming any device at another human for the purpose of "eliminating" them from even a game.

 

Unless the aiming has to do with an Explorer Post of a Police Station

 

Then again, you have to know that Hunting is an accepted activity for Venturing Crews

 

So perhaps there is no logic, just a rule, no Laser tag for scouts

[Beavah]

Yah, roger on da "no logic" bit.

 

I love all da various explanations various people offer as apologists for the almost incomprehensibly written simulated firearm rule. Of course, none of those are official BSA explanations. Irving has never issued an "official" explanation or interpretation.

 

As written, if yeh believe the "no pointing a firearm look-alike" interpretation, then yeh have to eliminate things like squirt guns and rubber suction-cup dart guns and marshmallow guns and those sticks that we're talkin' about in da other thread. Seriously, for any lad a stick is either a sword or a gun, eh?

 

So the "no pointing a firearm look-alike" interpretation is patently absurd, unless yeh really believe that da BSA buys into the feminist/liberal/Quaker/extreme anti-gun thing nation-wide, which doesn't match its sponsors or what it publishes in Boys Life and such.

 

Then there's da safety interpretation, eh? Pointing certain kinds of lasers at someone else does pose some small risk to eyesight. Laser Tag, however, doesn't use that kind of laser. In fact, from what younger engineering-type friends tell me, laser tag doesn't use lasers at all, eh? Lasers are too narrow for da detectors to catch reliably and make for a fun game. They use infrared TV remote technology (though some high-end equipment uses a weak diode laser as a special effect, but not actually for the "tag").

 

So if yeh take the safety interpretation, then clearly laser tag is OK (no lasers, no safety issue).

 

One might assume that da Guide to Safe Scouting is concerned only with da safety issue.

 

Then there's those that maintain that it's only simulated firearms that use paintballs, dye, or lasers that are prohibited, "just because." Which means that laser tag is OK because it doesn't really use lasers. It also means that some other things like Airsoft are OK, which are definitely firearm look-alikes.

 

I think each unit in its own programs makes a choice, and that by and large da majority of units are just ignorin' the simulated firearm bit as being unworkable. I know all da laser tag and paintball places around here have regular scout unit deals and yeh rarely can go to a Blue & Gold without a mention of da laser tag outing. In fact, the lasertag and paintball folks tend to be strong supporters of Scouting, so I'm not sure why we'd want to boycott their businesses.

 

So if yeh feel that allowing the kids to play with toy guns ain't appropriate for your CO or unit, I reckon we'd all support yeh in that choice. For da rest, since it's not a safety or image issue of any significance, I can't see why any unit would waste its time on it.

 

Beavah

 

[Rockford8070]

In regards to the firearms rules, BSA seems against simulated firearms as a game for whatever reason. So my question is this. Why is the big hyped up prize for the officially sponsored fundraising event, Trail's End popcorn, a marshmallow crossbow? In fact we were all given one at the popcorn training event to help get the kids hyped up about selling.

 

I'd also like to point out that they DIDN'T include targets. to shoot at also.(This message has been edited by Rockford8070)

[Eagle92]

Rock,

I'd go one better, since water pistols, etc are simulated firearms, you can interpret their use as being banned by the G2SS. BUT i have a recent recruting poster that shows... Cub Scouts at Day Camp with waterpistols, super soakers, etc.

 

 

I had that poster up @ CSDC in case an inspector gave us a hard time with the water activities.

[Kudu]

acco40 writes:

 

But, that was not the question. The question was, is laser tag allowed? The answer is no, it is not.

 

No, the question in this thread is "Rules? What Rules?" The answer is "Rules? What Rules?"

 

Or more plainly: "How do we know that the rules really are?"

 

As I noted in my initial post, the closest most of us ever come reading the BSA's actual rules are the sentences in the Guide to Safe Scouting (GtSS) which appear in bold-face type, so reminiscent of the red type in our Bibles:

 

"Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies" (GtSS, page iii).

 

So exactly where in the official Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America do the following words "in bold-face type" appear: "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized"?

 

Perhaps there is a clause somewhere in the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America that says "Feminist Den Leaders serving on a national safety committee can make up any rules they want."

 

But at face value the implication that laser tag is specifically banned by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, appears to be a lie in the same way that the implication that infrared-emitting devices are "firearms" is a lie, that infrared-emitting devices are "lasers" is a lie, and that a ban on infrared-emitting devices as a "safety" concern is a lie.

 

On the other hand, if we read the words in the GtSS according to their truthful or "literal" meaning, then there is no rule (offical or fake) that bans laser tag because "laser tag" does not use lasers.

 

The truthful or "literal" meaning of firearms and lasers is consistent with the BSA's promotion of marshmallow crossbows, squirt guns, and super-soakers.

 

All that being said, I am against laser tag because it is an expensive indoor game in a confined space.

 

Scouts should to pretend to kill each other as Baden-Powell and the BSA's Bill Hillcourt intended:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/laser_alternatives.htm

 

The above Wide Games offer plenty of politically incorrect games guaranteed to upset feminists, but in wide areas so that even your Troop's most obese little balls of butter get plenty of fresh air and exercise!

 

With the money that you save on even a single Troop trip to a laser tag establishment, you can purchase a couple of cheap GPS units for the above Treasure Hunt Games, and a couple of actual lasers for the Manhunt Games (the lasers are used by responsible older Scouts to indicate their positions at required regular intervals).

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

"Life After Scuba Diving Merit Badge:"

 

http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

 

[qwazse]

O.K. Kudu, I'm changing my answer to yours. All that being said, I am against laser tag because it is an expensive indoor game in a confined space.

And the next time a youth asks me, I'm plagarizing you ...

Scouts should to pretend to kill each other as Baden-Powell and the BSA's Bill Hillcourt intended.

 

Like my daughter said at the end of a day backpacking with our crew/troop: "You aren't going to get a conversation about improvised explosive devices sitting around a girl scout campfire."

[Troop24]

[begin rant]

 

I think the point of this thread from the very beginning has been an attempt to justify weaseling out of the rules by saying "Rules, What Rules?" Instead of following the guidelines as set forth in the G2SS there has been a lot of wind expended legitimizing the use of laser type objects other than professionally operated laser tag equipment to play tag. People have have used unnecessary vitriol to make their claims instead of simply following the rules.

 

Where along the way does that follow the lines of the Scout Law and the Scout Oath that we all supposedly voluntarily aspire to pass the values of onto the Scouts under our charge? Is it okay to not to pay a fee or bill you disagree with simply because you disagree with it? Instead of seeking a petition to change the amount due or the method it is collected. No I guess it is better to call the person a bitter name and simply do what you want to do anyway.

 

This thread plays well with the Eagle Mill thread of last week. People in this thread have suggested that local tradition can be applied to this practice because no one is harmed. Yet, last week people were upset that local troops were changing advancement rules, in their local tradition, by adding/subtracting from them and weakening the overall affect of the advancement process of Scouting across the board.

 

Play by the rules or don't play! Seems simple enough to me. Don't like the rules, petition to the rules committee and plead your case, get others with similar beliefs and experiences to join your cause and maybe you can effect a change.

 

Boy Scouts of America is a national organization and an Eagle Scout from Seattle should be the same as an Eagle Scout from Key West and so should any rank in between.

 

[end rant]

[Scoutfish]

My personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less:

 

95% of the rules in G2SS make perfect sense. The results that the rules are trying to avoid may not happen. MAY NOT. But they MIGHT.

 

Just because I drive on a highway does not meanI will get into a wreck. And the chances are great I will not need my seatbelt.

 

But I MIGHT need it IF I get into a wreck. IF I get into a wreck, that seatbelt will MOST LIKELY be more of a benefit than a detractor to my well being.

 

The kicker is, I have no way of knowing when that wreck that COULD happen, will happen. So better to just wear the seatbelt right?

 

Well, I guess that is the case in at least 95% of the rules , if not more.

 

But the other part? Like laser tag or shooting at a target of a duck or even a standard human sillouette target....well, that's just PC.

 

Those rules make as much sense as a school with a no exceptions policy suspending a couple of kindergarten boys for pointing finger and saying: "pow - pow!" while playing cops and robbers.

 

The idiot who somehow translatted that into a serial killer must be one of those govt funded job positions that has to justify their job!

 

Now, in my area, alot, and I do mean alot of cub scouts hunt. they may not "legally" own their guns, but the own them: .22, .270., 30-06, .410 guage, .12 guage..etc.

 

These boys wil go into thw woods with dad or grandad and spend all day until they shoot a der, turkey, hog, or whatever....yet cannot shoot a bb gun unless it's at a Council camp.

 

These same kids can play lawn darts, take chances in a public school, or ride in a chartered bus on an interstate, live in a bad neighborhoo, or go freaking scuba diving

d...but cannot shoot a laser tag gun at each other?

 

PC: Nothing more, nothing less.

 

"Sorry son, can't shoot the BB gun at our next den meeting, but tell you what, how about we buy you a new lever action 30-06, with the best scope ever for when we go hunting next weekend?"

 

[acco40]

Okay, now Scoutfish, the question is what is a Scouter to do going forward? Ignore the 5% content in the G2SS that he feels are just PC or let the 7th point of the Scout Law dictate their behavior?

[Scoutfish]

Nah, we follow the rules , or at the very least - don't intentionally break them.

 

But just because we follow them, does not mean they are good rules, make any sense or are of any actual value.