Rules? What Rules?

[jhankins]

The very fact Kudu posted this here and not in the Council relations thread shows yet another way he'd like to blame Wood badge for all the problems in the BSA.

 

What's the big deal about the rules? Seriously? What's verboten or anathema in there?

[BartHumphries]

Well, jhankins, apparently laser tag is?

[ntrog8r]

Bart,

 

I'm not sure about where the "Rules and Regulations" states Laser Tag is not allowed but,

 

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations.

The link for this is:

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss09.aspx

 

Kind of takes the fun out of Laser Tag, right? But this is not new or hidden in any way. This information is listed in the "Unauthorized and Restricted Activities" section of the Guide to Safe Scouting.

[evmori]

What's the big deal about the rules? Seriously? What's verboten or anathema in there?

 

Well, when you signed your application you agreed to abide by the rules and regs. If you don't know what they are, how do you know if you are abiding by them?

[JMBadger]

I love these forums. Twice now, this is the first place I've been made aware of a rule. The most recent here about laser tag, and a while back with regards to home-made alcohol stoves. I recently attended IOLS and as part of the cooking segment they brought up how wonderful the "can-style" alcohol stove was. Because of this forum I was able to inform them that those stoves are forbidden. At first they didn't believe me, but someone got on the internet and checked it out. I made a lot of people unhappy that day, but they agreed it was better to be made aware of the rule than continue violating it unknowingly.

 

Too many of us remember the "old rules" that either permitted so much or simply didn't address much, so that today we approach situations with "well, it was ok when I was a kid, it's ok now." I hope none of you ever stop bringing up rules that need to be observed, along with your sources, of course.

[TNScoutTroop]

Yep.

 

Clearer, better and more comprehensive rules will go a LONG way toward solving the BSA's problems. It's nearly impossible to get adults, much less teens, to use informed judgment. If the BSA pros will just spell out EXACTLY what troops, leaders and Scouts should do in each and every situation, so many problems will be avoided.

 

TN Scout Troop

 

=;-)

[shortridge]

Did anyone else have problems viewing some pages in the Rules & Regs? Quite a few came up blank.

[BartHumphries]

Those are the pages that your council doesn't want you to see?

[Kudu]

jhankins writes:

 

The very fact Kudu posted this here and not in the Council relations thread shows yet another way he'd like to blame Wood badge for all the problems in the BSA.

 

The very fact that jhankins does not understand why adult leader training should be based on the actual rules proves that Wood Badge is a cult

 

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

 

[EagleBeaver]

I took a $3.00 check with pre-stamped, addressed envelope to the council office last Tuesday and asked for them to pass my request for the Regs and Bylaws to national.

I received both documents today - no big deal, no problem, no conspiracy, no secrecy.

 

On the first page of each document, it states:

Councils may purchase additional copies for $1.50 each, which includes shipping and handling. Volunteers requesting copies of these publications must contact their local council which will forward their request and payment to: Boy Scouts of America, Office of the Chief Executive S400, PO Box 152079, Irving, TX 75015-2079

 

 

[BartHumphries]

I've been thinking of getting a copy of these rules myself. Lazer tag is prohibited? That was a shocker. Scratch that activity off next year's calendar.

 

As an Eagle Scout, who was a merit badge councilor at a scout camp, and is continuing to teach scouts as an adult volunteer, I really didn't see the point in having to take IOLS -- I know that material backwards and forwards. I signed up for that class in the beginning of September, then in the beginning of October the council rescheduled it from a week ago today to a week from today (and my troop already has a campout scheduled for that weekend). The next available IOLS in any district in the council (that I could attend with my schedule) will be in either January or February. I was ecstatic to learn that I could apply to my district training chair to test out of it. Sure, it might not happen until January or February anyway, but I feel better thinking that something is in motion.

 

I wonder what else I'll learn if I order a copy of the rules then actually sit down and read the whole thing.

[emb021]

"I've been thinking of getting a copy of these rules myself. Lazer tag is prohibited? That was a shocker. Scratch that activity off next year's calendar."

 

Well, feel free to get the Rules & Regs of the BSA. AFAIK, laser tag is not mentioned there. Its in the Guide to Safe Scouting, which you and everyone else can read on-line. The G2SS has been widely available for years and has all the prohibited activities listed. If you went thru basic leader training, this should have been pointed out to you.

 

"As an Eagle Scout, who was a merit badge councilor at a scout camp, and is continuing to teach scouts as an adult volunteer, I really didn't see the point in having to take IOLS."

 

And if you had bothered to read the Training Updates at the National website, you would read that those leaders who can show proficiency in what IOLS covers, you can test out.

 

I would, however, recommend you drop the attitude of 'i know all this, I was a scout/eagle scout, why do I need this training'. Just because you were a scout or even an eagle scout doesn't mean you know everything you should know as a scouter.

 

 

[BartHumphries]

Thanks, I'm looking up those activities in the G2SS now and no, it wasn't pointed out in the ASM/SM specific training that I went through. You're saying that laser tag is prohibited because of the "no firearms pointed at each other" section of the G2SS? What about laser tag that doesn't use a "firearm" but instead has a square flashlight-type box that couldn't possibly be confused for a "firearm"? One that looks like a http://www.gbfans.com/equipment/ghost-trap/ That's ok? Sheesh, you all had me worried about nothing.

 

You mean the training updates at the National Website that just barely came out this month? You're saying that even if I'd read the full rules I wouldn't have known about that until just now? No wonder my Council didn't seem to know anything about that when I emailed them.

 

Nobody knows everything but everyone is an expert in something, right? The Tenderfoot/Second Class/First Class stuff is stuff that I have down cold. I did have to learn what EDGE is for the new requirement, but as I explained in another thread it's basically the "tell someone about what you're doing, do it while they watch, watch them do it, offer suggestions or helpful criticism as needed" that I've already been doing. Looking at the current Tenderfoot/Second Class/First Class requirements at:

http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank2.asp

http://usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/boyscout/bsrank3.asp

http://usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/boyscout/bsrank4.asp

As an Eagle Scout, as a pioneering/wilderness survival/etc. merit badge counselor at a scout camp where I taught those things every week to perhaps hundreds of boys, as a current adult leader who's teaching those things, it is my opinion that I absolutely know those things. While I can be and have been surprised by other things in Scouting, I know the IOLS stuff.

[Scoutfish]

Heres a thought Bart,

 

I used to be an Asst Chief of a fire dept. I had training out the wazoo. Certified as a level III firefight in NC. That was as high as you could go -as far as firefighter certification. Had my E.M.T, CEVO, EVOC, Haz-Mat, Aircraft fire& Rescue, wildfire supprression, Communicable diseases prevention, etc......

 

Thing is, just like in your case, practicing and DOING it every day did not always mean we would just know about changes, updates, modifications.

 

I used to teach new firefighters how to run the pump on the engine,. I also taught them how to use the cascade system ( air bottle filler) . You'd think if I did that, I could teach them the simpler stuff, no?

 

You ever hear of the fire triangle? Heat- Fuel - Oxygen?

 

Turns out that I kept on teaching that ..years after it was changed to the Fire tetrahedron. Fuel, Heat, Oxygen - chemical reaction.

 

No, it didn't cgange how fire burned or how ewe put it out. Matter of fact, the only thing it did change was having to buy new boks!

 

but one the rescue side, look at CPR, They change that every 5 or 6 years. Matter of fact, they are in the process of changing it right now.

 

So, in your case, the laser tag probablyt wouldn't mean anythuing, but let the DE or SE find out you did it on the same day his car broke down, his wife and he had a fight and his son brings home a failing report card.

 

What would he do?

 

I'd test out too, if I was you, but I would inquire about refresher or update courses that could take the place of the main class/course. Instead of the full original class/course, see if they have one that is just an hour or two that just covers new changes/policies.

[ScoutNut]

Yes, you can do laser tag with "a square flashlight-type box that couldn't possibly be confused for a "firearm", as long as - per the Guide to Safe Scouting - "participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations", and you get Council approval, which means, again per the Guide to Safe Scouting - "the approval of the Scout Executive or his designee on a tour permit specifically outlining details of the event", and follow the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety, which is ALSO in the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

The Rules and Regulations are not updated monthly. They, like handbooks and other publications, are reprinted, but not redone unless there are significant changes.

 

Councils DO get updates emailed to their SE from National, there are also intranet sites that council professionals have access to where they can find new information.

 

Just because the information is out there, and available, does not guarantee that people, professional, or volunteer, will actually read it.

 

You didn't. The G2SS has been online for many years, and in print for many more. The ban on laser tag has been in effect for many years now.

 

If you don't read the BSA publications, or stay on top of updates, why would you assume that all of the folks at your council offices do?