Test Out Option for Intro to Outdoor Skills

[shortridge]

Why not just put on a positive, active program that keeps their skills well-honed through constant use?

 

That strikes me as a much better way to accomplish your goal than a punitive local option.

[Eagle92]

TN,

Must respectfully disagree with taking badges back as that is not BSA policy, although I do understand the rationale behind it. It can, and will get you in trouble. Trust me on this as some of the recent national advancement decisions have come out of my district I'm told.

 

Short provided a better way to maintain the proficiency: keeping an active program that forces contnueal use of the basic skills. Better still is having those First and above, and sometimes a Second Class Scout too, teach those skills to the younger ones.

[TNScoutTroop]

We're planning to work hard on actually using the skills we teach. That's why we're so excited about finding a camping location that is

+ close

+ free

+ free from cell signals

+ seemingly remote

+ relatively primitive

+ uncrowded

+ USFS, rather than NPS or TN Parks, so we can (judiciously) use Scout craft and pioneer skills

 

Even the fact that the geology is such that the rocks are sharp is not all bad -- we'll emphasize watching your steps, and will work hard to avoid broken bones, but some minor first aid from minor to moderate rock cuts is not something we view as all bad.

 

We don't anticipate a problem with the boys new to Scouting -- they'll have no expectations otherwise.

 

But what worries us is transfers and Cub Scouts coming in from elsewhere. We've already had inquiries, and are telling folks, 'no boys from outside the church till we're up and running with an established routine and trained adults'. We've seen parents be all gung-ho about real skills before, and then turn on a dime once Johnny's advancement gets slowed down, till his skills are real. Conflict like that, we don't need.

 

It sounds like the best policy may be to simply discourage transfers, and tell them "our troop is so different, that if you or your son liked Scouting before, you won't like our troop!".

 

Thanks for the caution.

 

Do y'all anticipate a problem if we were to simply postpone FURTHER advancement, till a Scout re-establishes his skills?

 

What about a Scout who insists on transferring in, even after being discouraged: can we insist on some evidence of real skills? (If the answer here is "No!", we'll probably just refuse transfers altogether.)

 

TN Scout Troop

[resqman]

I am an Eagle scout and treked Philmont. I was a member of a wilderness Search and Rescue team. I was a member of a Rope rescue team. I was an EMT.

 

I can camp, find direction, tie knots and perform first aid. There were things I re-learned or key points to stress when working with Boy Scouts became apparent when I took IOLS. I probably could have tested out if I knew at the time there was such an option.

 

IOLS is not designed to make adults proficient with the skills after progressing from T-SC-FC in a weekend. It is an introductory course. Part of the weekend is also sharing experiences between different troop leaders. Part of the weekend is changing the mindset of adults to think about the program and how it is delivered.

 

Yeah, I know how "I" select a campsite. But if I had to explain that to a scout, would I highlight the same points that are in the scout handbook? Shouldn't I be following the reference material available to the boys?

 

We have several ASMs who came to the troop with 20+ years military experience. They can hike, camp, and outdoorsman with the best of them. But they also carry the miliary method of doing those actions. Sometimes, the military method is not the same method the Boy Scout Handbook describes. And for good reason. Scouts camp for a very different reason than the military. Tanks are seldom a Leave No Trace type of activity. The miliary has different aims and purposes compared to scouting.

 

The adult leadership in our troop helps share skills and information with new ASMs until they are able to complete their coursework. Often by the time, they can get into a course, they have been camping with the troop for 6 months and have a very good understanding of the basic skills. Even so it helps to indoctrinate them into the National BSA viewpoint of outdoor skills.

 

I would suggest all ASMs take IOLS, even if they have adequate outdoor skills.

[shortridge]

Wow, you're so different, the rules don't apply to you.

 

I'll ask again: What gives a troop the authority to rescind a Scout's rank once earned?

 

How do you plan on putting this policy in practice? Can any leader at any time just order a Scout to build a fire, and they are required to respond with "Sir, how hot, sir?" or else they get their badge ripped off their uniform?

[Kudu]

We think nothing of retesting the adult-run stuff --Scout Spirit and office Leadership-- with every "Rank" (the term "Rank" is a BSA misnomer), but the Retesting of real Scouting (called Scoutcraft) is the BSA's worst nightmare.

 

In the rest of the world (including Hillcourt's Denmark), retesting is fundamental to Baden-Powell's Scouting.

 

All of the Tenderfoot Badge is retested for Second Class, and all of Second Class for First Class.

 

Even if a a Scout does not "advance," all of his badges are retested every 12-18 months:

 

432 (2) He must be repassed in all his qualifying badges once between twelve and eighteen months from the date of his being awarded the badge, except in the case of those badges which are marked with an asterisk, i.e., Ambulance Man, Interpreter, Pathfinder, and Signaller, which must be repassed annually in accordance with Rule 436.... He must cease to wear the King's Scout badge should he fail in any of them.

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

 

As much as we may not like some of the BSA's advancement rules, I personally would like to see time requirements for T-2-1 as well as First Aid MB required for First Class among others, we do have to follow the rules.

 

But the real problem for me is this: if you have an active program using those skills regularly, and your older scouts are teaching the newer ones those skills, why is their a need to retest? I think part of the problem is that some units do have a weak program, and are not using those skills regularly.

 

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[shortridge]

Kudu - And if that was the program in the U.S., I'd be all for it. But it's not. I'm all for increased competency and skills. But unilaterally declaring that you're not going to follow BSA policies & procedures is the wrong way to go.

[Kudu]

The BSA's so-called "rules," or "policies & procedures" are based on the BSA ignoring the rules set forth in our Congressional Charter:

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Using the Scoutcraft methods in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916 boils down to the badge requirements at the time, which were remarkably close to Baden-Powell's:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

 

The Congressional Charter is the instrument by which the BSA prevents American citizens from establishing Baden-Powell Scouting associations that are based on B-P's principle of "Current Proficiency," which requires Scouts to continually demonstrate mastery of the skills that each badge they wear represents. In Hillcourt's or B-P's Scoutcraft-based Scouting, the purpose of a badge is to indicate at a glance what a Scout can do at that moment (and NOT how close a Scout is to King's Scout or Eagle). This is why B-P placed the first aid badge on both shoulders of the uniform.

 

But unilaterally declaring that you're not going to follow BSA policies & procedures is the wrong way to go

 

The Chief Scout Executive has this very year used the race card to unilaterally declare that he is not going to follow the Scoutcraft policy dictated by the Congressional Charter, because Hispanics supposedly do not like Scoutcraft. So the BSA intends to replace Scoutcraft with "Character and Leadership." In other words, obeying the law is "old fashioned" ("Character") and worshiping CEOs ("Leadership") is modern: "We are deadly serious. We are absolutely serious about this"

 

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

 

And what is all this talk about policies and procedures? Eagle92 was a BSA professional, so he may have actually read the official rules and regulations of the BSA, but most of us have not. Instead we sift through BSA publications assuming that they are based on the official rules. For instance, we can deduce from the official SM & ASM Specific Training course that the Patrol Method no longer includes Patrol Leaders but is now defined as Adult Association + EDGE.

 

I doubt there is a specific rule or regulation that outlaws B-P's game of making a Scout take a cloth patch off his Uniform until he can demonstrate Current Proficiency, simply because nobody at BSA HQ would have thought of that

 

That being said, instead I usually asked the SPL or Patrol Leader to bring such Scouts up to speed and put them in charge of helping the PL teach that skill (such teaching is how "retesting" is usually done in Baden-Powell Scouting). In B-P Scouting it is also common practice for the Scoutmaster to put the PLC in charge of what we call "Blue Cards," so that Scouts who do not put enough effort into skills instruction will in turn be delayed from meeting with Proficiency Badge instructors to further their own advancement.

 

We have also lost sight of the central importance of Wide Games in maintaining Current Proficiency. In a small Troop as described by TNScoutTroop, Wide Games can be played with the one Patrol of six to ten Scouts against a Patrol of six adults. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

 

Some Night Games to make sure the Scouts are all tired out when they go to bed on Friday night. We play "Laser Man Hunt," where the older Scouts (or adults in a small Troop) are required to flash a laser near the hunters every five minutes to keep the game interesting:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm

 

Some Tenderfoot through First Class Scoutcraft games:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/smith/index.htm

 

And of course, nothing makes Scoutcraft skills more real than Physical Distance.

 

Physical Distance is why the 1916 methods specified in our Congressional Charter test a First Class Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft with the 14 mile First Class Journey. In B-P Scouting every badge has a Journey or Expedition of increasing difficulty to test Scoutcraft (50 miles for King's Scout).

 

Physical Distance is why the 1938 SM Handbook places so much importance on regular Troop and Patrol Theme Hikes as entertainment (as opposed to a one-shot five mile hike for 2nd Class). What the BSA called "Real Patrols" were expected to organize their own hikes at least every month or fortnight.

 

Physical Distance is also why Baden-Powell always camped his Patrols at least 300 feet apart. In a new Troop you might want to start at 50 feet and increase the distance (between the Scout Patrol and the adult Patrol) gradually as the Scouts prove themselves.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[Eagle92]

Since this has transfered into an Advancement thread instead of a Training thread, I am spinning off this topic to advancement.

[Kudu]

Yes, that is the problem with Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (ItOLS), training. Rather than a week-long course that teaches Scoutcraft in a Patrol Leadership context (What you need to know to get your Patrols out hiking), it is weekend course on "How to check things off the Advancement list."

[BartHumphries]

The boys can never lose a rank advancement simply by forgetting what they once knew. Once an Eagle, always an Eagle, even if it's been enough years that you no longer remember how to tie a bowline (the rabbit comes out of the hole, around the tree...). The same goes for the other rank advancements for boys. It may be that you shouldn't have earned something to begin with, but once you've earned it, it's yours and unless you're expelled from the scouting program (which is a council action, not a troop action), those things cannot be taken away from you.

[Kudu]

Yes, The difference between an Eagle Scout and a Baden-Powell Scout is Current Proficiency.

[BartHumphries]

So you would institute mandatory yearly retesting of all Eagle Scouts across the nation for the rest of their lives?

[Kudu]

Only if they want to say "I am an Eagle Scout" rather than "I was an Eagle Scout."

 

Of course in Baden-Powell's Scouting what we call "advancement" continues on past King's Scout in Rovers, so an active adult Rover would not need a test out option for Introduction to Outdoor Skills, you just look at his badges:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/rover/handbook/index.htm

 

If you feature a monkey bridge or climbing tower at a Camporee and announce that Eagle Scouts get to come to the head of the line, and then charge a knot tying "toll," you will find that about 80% of them can not even tie a clove hitch.

 

"Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle" reflects the contempt with which we hold Outdoor Skills.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu