Woodcraft as Adult Training

[eolesen]

"IOLs is inadequate. You don't even need to demonstrate skill to receive your card. Seen participants unable to identify poison ivy get their card......how do I know they were sitting in it at graduation. Amazing....... "

 

Training is only as good as the instructors. There's no shortage of people willing to take training classes, but they're only as good as the people training them.

 

Rather than coming up with an entirely new course, take "Learning to Teach IOLS" at PTC, and fix the problem that you say is there in the first place.

 

"I can see the 21st woodbadger not wanting this. The people I meet are not comfortable in the outdoors. I could never see any of them cowboy camping."

 

Probably one of the broadest generalizations I've ever seen anyone make, and totally uncalled for.

 

I don't really care what your personal opinions are regarding the way Woodbadge is conducted, but once you start insulting the people who attend... well, comments like that are hardly helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, or cheerful.

 

PTC offers several of the tracks mentioned above (e.g. Orienteering & Scouting, Philmont Leadership Challenge, COPE Manager, Trek Leader, Advanced Outdoor Skills, Wilderness First Aid). That means BSA already has the curriculum prepared. I don't know if BSA can provide these training courses outside of PTC, but if there's interest in your region, there's nothing preventing you from trying.

 

You've got other opportunities to try pieces of this as well... I remember watching some training sessions at a Camporee once for adults who wanted to learn more about dutch oven and campfire cooking.

[SR540Beaver]

You know, my experience is that the units who seems to be struggling with providing program at any level are the units who don't promote training. Some training is better than no training. While EDGE is a new acronym, it is the way scouting has always functioned. We pass our training and knowledge along to the new folks who come along. Very few people cross from Cubs to Scouts with advanced outdoor skills. I work with our new scout program. Can't tell you how many new boys and adults I've seen come over from Cubs and go o ntheir first campout carrying everything including the kitchen sink. They look like they are going on an expedition down the Amazon. It doesn't take long before they learn how to scale way back and develop their outdoor skills.

 

I've seen small and large troops where scouting seems to be an after thought for all involved and they go to the same camp and campsite when they do go camping and basically hang out around the fire all day. They are largely untrained, don't see the value in training and avoid you when you mention it. Don't have time.

 

Then I've seen small and large troops where scouting is taken seriously and a varied and interesting program is provided. The majority of adults in these troops are trained, see the value and usually assist in training. They have Scoutmasters like our troop where the SM makes sure the troop (not a council contingent) does a high adventure trip every year. As a personal note, the majority of these are Wood Badge trained folks.

[Kudu]

desertrat77 writes:

 

Some have commented that woodcraft is one method of scouting, and emphasis should be placed on the other methods too.

 

Training in Scoutcraft is not "one method of Scouting," it is one of the three "Purposes" of Scouting, as stated very clearly in our Congressional Charter (the legal instrument that gives our corporation a monopoly on Scouting for boys in the United States):

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

desertrat77 writes:

 

Proof of the detrimental effects of downplaying leadership and woodcraft? BSA history, '72 - '80.

 

You are entirely too kind to "leadership."

 

Wood Badge declared war on our Congressional Charter and replaced Scoutcraft with leadership skills:

 

Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft [sic] to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected.

 

Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right."

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

Just settle down, everything was going to be all right:

 

"The period from 1972-80 was a national disaster, when BSA membership declined nationwide by 34% (a loss of 2.2 million members)!"

 

http://www.troop97.net/t97hist.htm

 

I agree with sherminator505:

 

The new Wood Badge is not misunderstood.

 

Leadership Development is the enemy of Scoutcraft. It always has been, and it always will be. I don't understand why: Patrol Leaders could pretend to use the EDGE method to camp their Patrols 300 feet apart (instead of pretending to use it on the Duty Roster).

 

When Scouting was something that most boys wanted to do, leadership was merely a means to an end.

 

That end is Patrol Adventure.

 

When leadership becomes a "Method" of Scouting (or increasingly a Purpose of Scouting as in "Leadership and Character"), then we are obligated to "teach leadership skills" to every Scout so that every boy can occupy a "Position of Responsibility" for six months.

 

Because Patrol Adventure requires competency, both Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt instructed Scoutmasters to stick with the best leader in each Patrol.

 

Leadership Development is the exact opposite: Patrol Leaders are now interchangeable every six months. It removes ANY mention of the Patrol Leader and a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training and replaces him with Wood Badge EDGE theory for adults.

 

Wood Badge is not misunderstood!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[acco40]

Are you guys familiar with ABLE (Advanced Backcountry Leadership Experience) training? They rolled it out in our neck of the woods and it was well received. I don't know if it went national or not. it is supplementary training for IOLS (sort of).

 

Kudu - I disagree with many of your statements. Patrol leaders are not interchangable every six no more than our presidents are interchangeable every four years. We have the capability to elect a replacement - based on scout skills, leadership qualities or who will give us the best tax breaks.

 

What does one do with a Scout who wants to lead but has difficulty? The same thing we do with a Scout who wants to cook but has difficulty. We teach them skills to do the job. I'm mystified why that bothers you so.

[Basementdweller]

acco

 

I am interested in the ABLE training your talking about. Could you forward some addition information, if your comfortable.

 

I would be interested in attending the course and seeing what it is about.

[Lisabob]

basement - let's not confuse things. From another thread, it sounds as though you met some real doozies who also happened to be wood badgers. It happens sometimes, and I'm sorry you experienced it.

 

But, what's that saying, send an idiot to training and you get back a trained idiot? Not necessarily the "fault" of the WB curriculum - if it weren't for that, they'd be acting all goofy about something else, instead. Good people are good people (WB or not) and idiots are idiots (WB or not).

 

About outdoor training - yes I think we need more of it. Offer to staff a class at your next Scouting University, or the next camporee, etc. Ask for a local troop who has a good program to team up with you, and offer an adult training program about some important topic, while the boys from the two troops are off doing whatever youth activity they planned for the day. Get involved with your district and council training teams and make the case for more hands on adult training, offered district- or council-wide. Lots of options exist. Don't anybody blame the existence of Wood Badge for the fact that people choose not to avail themselves of these other options.

 

 

[eolesen]

http://www.glcscouting.org/training/pdf/ABLE_2010.pdf

[desertrat77]

Lisabob, good points but a few thoughts:

 

- Getting involved in district and council training cadres is great, but there are many places where you have to have those WB beads to be considered "credible"

 

- National, council, district cadres put their money where they mouth is. Can anyone name another training course that is more heavily resourced than WB? Across the board, WB gets the lion's share of salesmanship, resources, priority. Everything else? A mention at roundtable and a blurb in the district events bulletin.

 

If these other training courses received even a fraction of the resources and stature that WB gets, we'd really have something.

 

Kudu: as always, your vectors are appreciated! I sit corrected on the method/purpose distinction, thanks. Regarding the leadership comment, what I should have added: scouts learned leadership in the field, while learning woodcraft and then teaching it. While White Stag and WB sell leadership theory, I don't see their courses doing much field application. I consider their product lines to be mostly managerial theory instead.

[Basementdweller]

thx for the link to the ABLE course document.

 

Kinda disappointed in the length. One single day of class room with one weekend of practical. Without experiencing it first hand hard to tell if it is adequate. Missed it for this year, I will keep an eye out for next year.

 

 

 

The entire and sole reason I took WB was to remove the roadblock to improving our districts outdoor program. As stated many times in earlier threads my current lack of Beads presents The Good old Wood Badge boys concern and an easy path to dismiss my requests.....of course their beads are no longer valid for Jambo.

 

 

[Lisabob]

I think it is a shame that in some councils, people use WB beads (or lack of them) as barriers to participation in the work of the council. So desert, I take your point on that one.

 

One other thing to keep in mind though, is that when it comes to staffing, people tend to draw from a pool of folks they know. I'm reminded of the fellow who served as my son's first scoutmaster. Wonderful guy, great with kids, a fine outdoorsman and teacher. He would have been a fantastic addition to the district's training team, but the troop rarely participated in district or council events, leaders weren't active in roundtable etc., and so nobody asked this fellow to join the training team because *they didn't know he existed!*.

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

desertrat77: "National, council, district cadres put their money where they mouth is. Can anyone name another training course that is more heavily resourced than WB? Across the board, WB gets the lion's share of salesmanship, resources, priority. Everything else? A mention at roundtable and a blurb in the district events bulletin."

 

Ahhhh but......you can not attend Wood Badge without being fully trained for your position in Scouting. I've served on three WB staffs now and can tell you that we sell, support and staff the other training. Without it, there is no WB course. A full course is 48 particpants. We hold two courses per year, so that is 96 possible participants. You have to have 30 fully paid participants 30 days out for a course to be approved. That means there is a constant push for all of the other training BSA provides in order to have elligible participants.

 

Keep in mind that BSA will be requiring leaders to be trained in order for the unit to recharter and that is an indication of what training is getting the big push. WB isn't required.

[Basementdweller]

That is complete bull hockey.

 

There is a wolf den leader in my Patrol. She doesn't have a clue about scouting. She merely picked up a brochure and signed up.

 

I guess she is trained for her position. If that is truely the case then BS outdoor leadership skills should be a prerequisite.

[Eagle92]

SR,

While WB requires a participant to be "fully trained," it no longer has the 2 years tenure prerequisite and as Basement has stated, a brand new CS leader with no outdoor skills can take the course their first year. And with online specific leader training headed our way, BTW did national ever put the CS SLT online like they were suppose to on June 20th, I fear that fewer people will get outdoor training before taking on WB.

 

Yes WB21C is not an outdoor skills course, but I believe you are doing some camping, and to a newbie who is unprepared, that is a recipe for disaster.

[trainerlady]

I agree that we need woodcraft/scoutcraft training for adult leaders. I grew up in Girl Guides and have been an avid car camper my entire life. But I DON'T feel prepared to teach my boys some of the needed skills - knots, whittling/axe/saws/etc, lashings, back country anything, etc. I can kick butt in first aid, swimming/lifesaving, scout history, event planning. But I can't teach basic scout skills - I've NEVER learned them. I've been exposed to them in IOLS, BALOO, Webelos Outdoor Skills, but never had a chance to do them for more than 10-30 minutes (at most in most classes it was just watch someone do it), practice them with a mentor, or apply them.

 

I don't subscribe to those that can do and those that can't teach. I'd love to be able to DO and TEACH. The truly scary thing for me is that I can do some of these things better than some of my previous instructors. Had one instructor that couldn't follow his own instructions to tie a bowline using the bunny and the tree method. He could tell you the steps from a book (I guess) but couldn't put his hands on mine and help me. After a while of fiddling with the rope I got it.

 

I'd love to be on training staff in my district but I don't have the flippin' bits of wood and leather hanging off my neck. Have been to PTC twice, but I still don't "know anything" without the bits of wood and leather (by the way the ones in my store look more like pleather and plastic). I have done WB class, haven't completed the ticket, don't know if I will - long story , VERY BAD CLASS. But still don't "know anything" cause there are no beads on my neck yet.

 

ABLE class isn't the answer. Great course from what I've heard but not the solution to this problem. Adult leader shouldn't have to go to the PTC and take Teaching IOLS to improve there own skills.

 

We need more activity appropriate training with skilled instructors. The current WB doesn't come close to what a leader in the trenches needs. And it needs to be billed for what it is a management course, not the be all and end all of training.

[desertrat77]

SR, I'm glad to hear things work well in your council, good news indeed. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in other councils, at least the ones I've been exposed to as I move about in the military.

 

When the WB machine starts cranking, the drum beat is loud. Clearly a big deal. And many long-term scouters only come out when it's WB time. The other training courses? Strictly sideshows and square fillers by comparision, at least as far as council/district time and attention are concerned.