Training and the Grandfather Clause

[moosetracker]

So what can people tell me about the training Grandfather clause?

 

When I looked over my district training reports (which are oh so, not good).. And for multi unit registered Leaders I was seeing they were trained in one unit with New Leaders Essentails and Untrained in another Unit and needed This is scouting..

 

Our Registrar at council sent me this in an email..

 

... New Leader Essentials and This is Scouting are the same, yet different at the same time. New Leader Essentials was phased out with This is Scouting taking its place last year. One problem that I think you are running into, and I have also run into, is who is grandfathered by New Leader Essentials for their various positions and who is not. ...

 

 

So with the change coming to IOLS & OWLS.. What will that mean to Weblo leaders looking to take it and be good for when they do reach Boy Scouts.. Wait?.. Sign up to be duel-enrolled now, if you know what troop your son is going too?

 

[Eagle92]

Moose,

Be advised that the 'grandfather clause" can be revised to "ungrandfather" them. I'll give you my example. I took Explorer Basic in 1996. When Venturing came out, I was 'grandfathered" as trained. 12 years later, I am no longer "grandfathered" as a trained Venturing leader, despite going through all the professional training at the '98 NLTC, aka All Hands Conference, that occured.

 

As to your question, it's a good one, and I don't knwo the answer. I will say that I was told by my former DE that since I had taught IOLS training, I went through the old SM Fundamentals training, I would not need to go through the Webelos one.

 

In looking at the two trainings, OWL and IOLS are nearly identical. Since my district is very small, and since do not have alarge cadre of trainers, we are just doing IOLS and inviting WDLs to that course.

[Eagle92]

One more thing, Another previous DE, we run through alot of them in my district, advised me that whenever a new training course came out that I taught, go ahead and put my name in the student section of the training report as well so that it would be go into SCOUTNET. That way no matter what changes in training are made, i would always be considered "Trained."

[Eagle92]

One more post and that's it until someone else posts, I promise. I have a feeling that if you look at multi registered adults and their training status, SCOUTNET is looking at the DATES they are registered in the POR to see what training is needed. For example, if I am on the District Committee from 2004 to present, I need A, B or Z, C or Y training to be considered trained, and they have to be done within that period. IF I also become a CSDL, say 2010, then I will A, Z, Y training b/c that is the most current. I'm betting that SCOUTNET is not looking at the full training record of an individual for them to be considered trained.

 

So A) an old fogey like me maybe in trouble since I have tons of older training under my belt, does CS Basic Leader training which trained you for ALL CS positions ring a bell, and SCOUTNET may not recognize me as trained despite these older traingings being in my recrods. And B) my old DE saying list yuorself as a student for new trainign courses is 100% dead on.

[UCEagle72]

I look at it this way ... I taught the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals class (which was a combo of the SM Basic & IOLS) -- yet, that was several (20) years back -- so, I am taking all the new training over.

 

Not that I need to, but I am doing it for myself. I believe that a good Commissioner should have at least the same training as those he serves -- so -- with a Pack, Troop & Crew I have been busy!

 

(BTW - I always listed my training staff on the training attendance class roster, provided they stayed for the whole thing.)(This message has been edited by UCEagle72)

[moosetracker]

Eagle92 - just one more thing to make the "mandated" training a headache for us that have to sort things out..

 

UCEagle72 - I agree with you on if your training is getting very outdated, you definatly should keep up with the times. I hope the majority of long-timers think the way you do.. If you are still in scouts after 20 years, I would hope you training is more up to date then that offered 20 years back..

 

But, if someone takes IOLS in October and is suppose to be trained for both CubScouts & Boys Scouts and crosses over to the troop in March (or even the following March).. I don't think it would now be fair to tell them they are "untrained" because you took an old course. Especially if the major change to the program is to combine Cub Scouts with Boy Scouts, and they took the Boy Scout training and don't need the Cub scout section anymore.

[Gunny2862]

What I think is hilarious and soon to be problematic is the "I took the old Woodbadge course and thus I don't ever need to take any more training ever again" mentality some of the old timers I'm running into are exhibiting. Like what they don't need SSD or SA, or Water Craft Safety or Aquatics Supervision or Trek Safely or Wilderness First Aid because they took a Leadership/Management course what 8-10 years ago????

[Eagle92]

Gunny,

Part of the challenge in reference to WB and the attitude " I don't need anymore training," is that it was advertised at one time as the ultimate in training, and that once you completed WB, you were fully trained,and no other training was needed.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Lisabob]

I took the "new" WB in 2003 and I can say with certainty, nothing like that was ever suggested in our course. Nor should it have been. There is a lot to learn, beyond what WB teaches.

 

About grandfathering - I really think all of our basic training courses should come with expiration dates. Just because somebody took basic position training 20 years ago does not mean that a) things haven't changed, or b) they remember everything (anything), or c) they wouldn't have a different perspective now, in light of 20 years of on-the-ground experience. Of course this requires that training be high quality and easily accessible, but if we can take those as given (I know, a big IF), then maybe re-upping one's training every 5 years or so would be a reasonable expectation.

 

 

 

 

[jhankins]

The new Wood Badge is only the beginning of advanced leadership, and that's how the course is supposed to be marketed. One member of my patrol as Troop Guide made herself another ticket to work on after she got her beads to help her stay focused on the next year of her scouting career. I love that idea! She's still growing and learning and "got it."

 

If I have a leader in my district switching positions in programs, I have them take This is Scouting so they are not only current with the times, they can understand the language and culture that's being brought into scouting by the next generation of leaders. It's like sending your SPL to NYLT and no one understanding what EDGE is.

 

If a leader has taken IOLS and becomes a WDL, I ask them to take IOLS over, but take the WDL round robins so they understand exactly how to make the material age appropriate for those webelos. I even ask them to help teach the course so they can teach the stuff they are pros at, and then take the electives for the fun part.

 

 

[Eagle92]

J,

Problem is that you do have Scouters who have, "been there, done that, got the patch, and am using the things in my unit's program, and I am busy working with the troop, helping out the pack, and working on the DisCom. And you want me to go through training AGAIN"

 

I sympathize with them. I am very busy with my family and in scouting. There are some courses I would love to recertify for, i.e. BSA Lifeguard, but I do not have the time and/or money to do. if BSA was to say all trainings need to be redone every 5 years, this could cause additional problems.

 

Now if they allowed test out options like they do with IOLS for all trainings, including YPT, I can see the possibility of having recerts. But to be honest when I went through the outdoor portion of SM Fundamentals back in the day, I was bored to tears. Especially since I did Brownsea 22 four to five years earlier. Ditto BALOO as I learned only 1 thing new: a knot used to tie a waterbottle carrier.

[rkfrance]

Sorry, don't want to add gas to the fire but ...

 

The Training Not Completed report shows leaders by position with needed training codes. These codes are listed at http://scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/trainingcoursesreport2010.pdf which has been changed recently from a 3 page document to a 7 page document.

 

I've posed the same questions about NLE and This Is Scouting. There's another glaring issue that pops up thru our council. Troop committee members previously considered Trained now appear on the report as needing to take WS10 WEB Troop Committee Challenge even though they have had the standard form of Troop Committee Challenge.

 

If this is the one of the biggest issues BSA is facing over the next couple of years, why is there such a lack of response at addressing these concerns for the volunteers and professionals that will have to deal with them?

[moosetracker]

That makes no sense as it went on line with no name change, and is still the board game, and as far as I know, you can still hold the normal course.

Did you find that out by a volunteers complaint? Unless a volunteer was duel registered in two troops, their pathetic software wouldnt show us that they had Committee challenge, because they wouldnt be on the trained report, just the untrained on as needing Web TCC..

 

Also 3/4th of those courses will never show on our reports, because they deem you only need to know about the required courses. I am surprise they let us see those who took NLE on the trained report. I found out some of my volunteers are on the trained list, but showing no courses or an incomplete list. Gee.. they took an older course that qualified them as trained. But, you don't need to see that Do you??? So we will just remove those for you..

 

 

[jhankins]

A district training chair is empowered to test people out of any training they see fit, they just have to put in the training report.

 

I use this method with leaders who have been camping for ages and can answer a few good questions.