Girl Scout Leaders Lack Training

[Midnight]

I am writing a proposal to a few Girl Scout councils concerning a problem about how Girl Scout Leaders seem to lack basic camping skill training. And before anyone gets mad, let me say this, I am NOT saying that all Girl Scout leaders are incompetent, I'm just trying to get a handle on the opinions and the thoughts concerning this situation.

 

My history of scouts is based on the fact that I am a Girl Scout resident camp counselor (hence the camp name, Midnight). I am also trained in Traversing, Climbing, first-aid, CPR, and all the usual stuff that GS Leaders are required to be trained in. I have earned my Silver and Gold awards and have been in the organization for over fifteen years.

 

From the first summer that I was old enough to staff at a GS camp, I began noticing how Girl Scout leaders lacked some of the most imperative camping skills. One leader taught her girls that the "correct way" to build a fire was by spraying a can of bug spray over a lighter for a torch effect. Another leader saw a snake, freaked out, and ran halfway across the camp leaving her girls behind screaming and crying. One woman didn't understand how to set up a tent, got upset over it, and in the process, upset all the girls to the point to where they all left and went home. Another leader, one who I've known from a very young age, allowed her girls to go swimming in a lake without any knowledge of whether the girls knew how to swim or not. The leader had no swimming experience herself, and one girl who started struggling might have drowned had the camp ranger not intervened.

 

These are just a few examples of things that I have been a witness to. Others have told me their own horror stories of incidents that happened in their own troops. I actually took this information to one of my councils but was dismissed because I didn't have any proof in writing outside my own notes.

 

I'm looking for opinions on this. But even more importantly, I'm looking for reasons why you believe that Girl Scout leaders require more training.

 

Thanks

[le Voyageur]

I tend to think the problem with the poor level of adult leader training in the GSA is due in large part to all the rules and regulations that have to be complied with when camping a unit. It's a wonder that anyone is allowed to do anything whatsoever in the outdoors. In their outdoor programs it seems that GSA wants only programs that are absolutey 100 percent risk free...until GSA does a turn around with this attitude, then they will always be stuck with leaders with poor outdoor skills that in the long run will put their girls at greater risk for harm in the outdoors.

[le Voyageur]

I tend to think the problem with the poor level of adult leader training in the GSA is due in large part to all the rules and regulations that have to be complied with when camping a unit. It's a wonder that anyone is allowed to do anything whatsoever in the outdoors. In their outdoor programs it seems that GSA wants only programs that are absolutey 100 percent risk free...until GSA does a turn around with this attitude, then they will always be stuck with leaders with poor outdoor skills that in the long run will put their girls at greater risk for harm in the outdoors.

[EagleWB]

I thought for a GS unit to go camping it was required that one leader have the GS outdoor or camping training. I'm not that familiar with GS as I have three boys. Do they have any types of training? Are they having problems getting leaders trained just like in BS? I think all leaders should get trained in whatever it is they are in. GS leaders might need this training more because they never had the opportunity to go camping.

[sctmom]

It was my understanding that Girl Scout leaders must take overnight camping training before taking girls camping. They also must have a First Aid trained person with them at such outings.

 

The incidents you described may have been trained leaders just not real smart leaders. How many times in BSA have we seen trained leaders who blatantly ignore the rules?

 

[NJCubScouter]

I agree, sctmom. Training is not the "magic bullet" that some people in this forum may think it is, or to put in another way, while an untrained leader is probably a poor leader, a poor leader is not necessarily an untrained leader. In some class somewhere I learned the difference between what is "necessary" and what is "sufficient." I believe that, with rare exceptions, training is necessary to be a good leader, but it is not always sufficient.

[ScoutNut]

Sctmom is correct - in order to take your GS troop camping you are required to have at least 1 leader who has gone thru camping training to your level and a separate leader who is first aid trained.

 

The GS camping training comes in various levels. You have basic to lodge to tent. With various levels in between depending what your council requires. GS does progression in camping just like they do in everything else. Daisies (K) are not allowed to stay overnight at all. Younger Brownies (1-3 grd) are allowed to overnight in lodges only. As they get older and more expierenced they eventually go to tent camping and on to high adventure. Likewise the leaders should go thru all levels of outdoor training.

 

I have found, during my 10 years as a leader, that the training in my councils has been very good. Remember, your training is only as good as your trainer. Also, since there only has to be 1 leader outdoor trained, there will be leaders there who are not outdoor trained at all. And, as Sctmom said, there will always be some leaders who think the rules are not for them.

 

I think the key is not MORE training but perhaps BETTER training and better supervision of those that are un-trained.

[Midnight]

I agree for the most part with the above statements (and thank you so much for them ). My argument for training would be that nearly all the leaders who receive multiple trainings, outside the required overnight training, do remarkably well as troop leaders.

 

"It was my understanding that Girl Scout leaders must take overnight camping training before taking girls camping. They also must have a First Aid trained person with them at such outings." - sctmom is correct.

 

I ought to mention is that I have been to many of these overnight trainings as a junior trainer. Every single time, the trainers (three different ones) would hand out forms stating that the women had been certified. The papers were pre-signed and dated before there was any material taught to the trainees. For the rest of the night the women usually sit chatting around a campfire and leave the camp before the night is even over. These are in no way proper trainings, they are a joke and an embarrassment to GSUSA.

 

And in case anyone is wondering, I did take this to the council. Problem is, you arent usually taken seriously unless you are a parent (ie. Have a kid in a troop). So I was never even heard by people who could do anything.

 

What needs to happen is actual trainings. Real, prove-that-you-know-it, trainings. More that one trainer should be present, each to be a check for the other.

 

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

A friend of mine took Girl Scout leader outdoor training a few years ago. I remember her saying she had to cook her breakfast on a coffee can over a buddy burner. She said it was a very hands-on course, they really did do a lot.

 

Sounds like your council has some problems that not all councils have.

 

[ozemu]

Properly trained leader trainers should be able to do proper training. Maybe GS trainers need training - maybe they are doing the best they can.

 

Are there external to GS standards that can be implemented? We have national competency standards for outdoor recreation of all kinds. Surely you have something similar. The good thing about this is that we have to be very serious about our assessment (and therefore our training in the first place) because one day soon we will be audited by an independant regulator and our training license will hang on that. This has made us take the whole standards thing very seriously.

 

Midnight, the answer may be in training (in part) but the training may be needed for leader trainers (given the content of your posts). Can you address this? The other aspect might be selection. I suggest that you talk to Annalisa about that.

[Midnight]

Address the topic of trainer training or go to the council personally?

 

You are hitting the mark on this one - the trainers do need to be better trained. I guess I never followed the training and certification tree all the way to the root. As far as I know, the Lead Trainers for trainers who also organize the standards report to GSUSA, or at least that's what it says in my hand book. You would think that they would have some standards to follow set by the government or other outdoor organizations, wouldn't you? I'll have to do some asking around to see who the big fish ultimately report to.

 

I'll talk more later - I need to go to class

[KoreaScouter]

My experience with GS training here is mainly as an eavesdropper/observer. We share facilities and I interact with the GS Committee Chair regularly. My impression is that GS at the council-equivalent level, at least here, puts more time and resources into training than we do at the council level. For example, West Pacific GS pays the travel expenses for troop leaders to go to Japan for training.

 

I've read GS Safety-Wise, and while some of the GS policies are different than ours, I don't see GS safety rules as that much different philosophically than ours are.

 

I've helped set up GS overnight camps, too. They do camp quite a bit differently than we do. For example, on the overnights I've helped out on with my daughter's troop, leaders and volunteers put up and strike the tents, and the campouts are more social than outdoor-skill building, particularly for the Brownies and Juniors. But, I don't think the GS mission and goals are tied as closely to an outdoor program as ours are, so that's not a criticism.

 

At the Cadet and Senior level, I think the girls can hold their own. One of our GS troops recently did a week in Idaho, in the middle of nowhere, eating nothing but retort-packaged foods -- tough-guy stuff. We taught knot-tying sessions for them before they left, and they were all over it. They do rappelling and rock-climbing when they go to Japan, and so on.

 

As others have said, I think training's important, but won't stand alone. Common sense, and motivation play a role too, no matter what uniform you're wearing.

 

KS

[yarrow]

I think GSUSA problems still stem from the size of the troops. In a Boy Scout troop of 30 you have more expertise. In an cadette troop of 6 maybe less. I have Juniors and Seniors. I have had Brownies. We tent camped, knot tied, did dutch oven cooking with Brownies. They didn't run it but they certainly learned. My experience with the outdoor training session was that it was inadequate, but I have been in GSUSA for about 20 years and have had the experience so we camp. I can build a fire pretty much anywhere and bugs/snakes don't bother me. LOL

[denver4und@aol.com]

Boy, I love these threads, but I always get in trouble. The problem with the Girl Scouts is its National and Council professional leadership. (that small mark at the end of the sentence is a PERIOD!).

 

I am currently a Scoutmaster, an Eagle, and I have my Scouter's Key.

 

I am also a certificated, trained Girl Scout Leader. I've been certificated as a Brownie, Junior and Senior troop leader, as a Service Unit Coordinator, as an Outdoor Leader and as an "out of state, long term trip" leader, whatever the heck that class was officially called. My camp name is "Big Red".

 

As the Service Unit Coordinator (for you BSA leaders, GSA doesn't have paid DE's, they have volunteers, who then answer to a DE equivalent who supervises several districts, called Service Units), and Senior Troop Leader I asisted my Unit in holding two camporees. The girls in our Troop wanted to camp, and wanted to lead. So they organized two. First first was Camp Mardi Gras, complete with mask making, costume making, and a parade to campfire and a mardi gras themed muscial show (after all it was Girl Scouts! LOL). The second was a more traditional themed out-doors-woman event called Mountain Music. We had more than 90 girls at each, from Brownies to other Seniors. The after-action report to the District Committe (all Troop leaders) was enthusiastically received and the Troop Leaders couldn't wait for another event!

 

So we held a great Thinking Day event. It was a Trip to China, and we had more than 150 girls participate (the year before with another Unit leader had been a speech, attended by less than 40 girls). Again, the Service Unit meeting was pumped, the leaders had great ideas and we were on the move.

 

Then I got the letter. I was being removed as Service Unit Coordinator. Why? Because I had allowed camping to become the theme of the District, and I was encouraging too much activity that interfered "with more important activities". I quote the letter (signed by the paid GSA person, 1 step below the GS Council Executive): "Two or three campouts a year are two or three too many for Girl Scouts. The activities you have advocated and encouraged distract the girls from other more important activites, such as cookie sales."

 

The letter goes on, and on. And that's what it said, Scout's Honor! I "dropped out" instantly. My wife stayed on with my daughter's unit and my daughter finished her Gold Award -- and then joined a Venturer Unit and went back to camping.

 

So, it ain't lack of training. Its a national emphasis on selling cookies to pay staff.

 

GSA is different from the Boy Scouts. But several things are very clear:

 

1. I met more gays in the local GSA Council than I ever have in the BSA. [And I am not homophobic. As a lawyer I think the Supreme Court was wrong, and as a Scouter I think national's use of the court's was dumb.] You draw your own conclusions on the effect however.

 

2. I took the training, and I obeyed the rules. But the system, run by the paid "professionals" was not interested in the girls, only the money. [by the way, my girls, as Cadettes and as Seniors, were twice the top selling Troop in our Service Unit, including the year that I was fired.]

 

3. Since I left, the Service Unit has not had a single "camporee" style event for the girls. Not one. I left the job 3 years ago.

 

4. During training, I was asked, repeatedly, "why do you want to be a Girl Scout Leader?" I answered that I wanted to share Scouting with my daughter, just like I was sharing as a cub leader with my son. I was repeatedly subjected to inquiry because I was seen as trying to hang out with girls. During my various training courses I met a total of 3 other men trying to be leaders, for the same reasons. They reported the same type of bias and belittling.

 

So, it ain't that Girl Scout Leaders Lack Training, its that the Girl Scout movement is busted. Can you imagine a paid male staffer in a GSA Council?

 

And I'm not off topic. If the movement doesn't value a skill, doesn't encourage its use, and doesn't reward those who try to make the events happen to hone the skill, then the skills are lost. That's why, Midnight, you find troops, scouts and leaders unprepared -- they have no vehicle and no incentive to be prepared.

 

By the way, I understand that one executive, one Unit, and one experience is not all of Girl Scouts. In fact, we met a Girl Scout Senior Troop at Badlands National Park last summer as my Troop finished hiking the desert and the girls finished similar activities. There are good leaders, and presumably, good paid professionals in that movement. But I believe that the institutional bias leaves them in a minority.

 

yis(This message has been edited by denver4und@aol.com)