Advance Outdoor Leadership Training Anyone?

[sherminator505]

I can see the problem with making this a "supplemental" training course. How about this - rather than looking at IOLS and AOLS, how about a two weekend OLS, with the option for an experienced Scouter (or one that has already taken IOLS) to test out of weekend #1?

[Crew21_Adv]

 

Eagle92 and Fellow Scouters,

 

 

Greetings!

 

If I can comment on a few things. Like emb021 and Buffalo Skipper said, Powderhorn is a great course, but it is a resource course. No two courses are alike. There is not a curriculum like NYLT or Wood Badge.

 

Many Scouters come from different experiences. Over the years, I have had some advanced first aid training and I have held a sucking chest wound together at least once. But I am obviously no doctor or first responder/EMS.

 

I've always known that Scouters (aka any regular adult) come from different backgrounds and different trainings across the USA. My biggest disappointment was during our realistic first aid challenge at Powderhorn.

 

During the exercise, three of us (out of our 10 member crew) went into action. The exercise victim had fallen off a mountain bike after seeing a snake in the path. I did what I have learned to do before, as one of our Crew members held and stabilized the neck and shoulders from turning, I began to loosing the shoulder straps (which was pulling her shoulders back and restricting her breathing as she was laying on her backpack) and I began to run my index finger down her spine to check for alignment/misalignment.

 

Both times I was quickly met with "Don't touch her!", by peers that considered themselves more experienced.

 

Frustrated at the exercise and the expertise of my peers, I walked away. At the 10 minute mark, one of the rescuers yelled, "Did anyone check her spine?!", followed by "Why didn't anyone loosen her backpack straps, she can't breath!"

 

The realistic first aid exercise wrapped up shortly after that, with a critique and lesson afterwards. But I was short tempered and nearly let a few profanities fly, after being asked why I didn't do something 10 minutes earlier, when the self proclaimed expert yelled not to do it.

 

All this to say.

 

My fellow Scouters in Powderhorn and I had been taught different first aid techniques. My techniques obviously did not support their first aid techniques. So I quit the exercise.

 

We all have learned different techniques. Between Wilderness First Aid, to Fire Laying, to Orienteering, to LNT, to backpacking/hiking. What is taught as gospel in the dry California and Arizona climate, may have a different definition in the Virginia Appalachian mountains, and may be different from the Louisiana swamps to the Maine snow drifts.

 

When I conduct training in my district and council. I tell my friends that I am not teaching them how to go camping. But I am teaching them how to safely take up to a hundred, 11 year old boys outside in the woods to go camping. You can always bring back an extra boy, but you cannot bring back any less.

What some may consider to be necessary skills, should be taught in Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills.

 

Like my one disappointment at Powderhorn. We had different interpretations of Advanced First Aid Skills, Advanced Outdoor Skills may have widely different definitions across the BSA.

 

And, unfortunately beyond that. How many troops will realistically take a hundred, 11 year olds on a 50 Miler without ever seeing civilization for a few days. Not many. I dont think many Scouters really need advanced outdoor skills. If they do learn them, will they use them? Or will the use EDGE and pass these skills onto 11 y/o Scouts?

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[BadenP]

I have to agree with OGE's post, why reinvent the wheel there are plenty of good exsisting outdoor training programs available. I was recently on a district camporee and witnessed a SM give a boy in his troop a can of lighter fluid to start a campfire, telling hom to drench the wood good then stand back and throw in a lighted match. How the heck this guy ever got to be a SM is beyond me. Later I questioned him about it and he said he didn't like to have his boys waste time with traditional techniques, which he admitted he was not very good with, and lighter fluid was what he liked to use whenever he went camping. Now if this isn't a scream for more outdoor skills training, I don't know what is.

 

It would be interesting to see on a National level just how many SM's and ASM's take training beyond the basics, especially outdoor skills which should be mandatory for EVERY boy scout and venturing leader who take their youth on hiking or camping trips in order to get their their tour permit approved

[Eagle92]

Crew,

Good point in that skill and abilities do vary from location to location. That may be something to consider in creating a course.

 

As to why a course like this would be important, I can see a troop, or even a crew for that matter, having a leader uncomfortable with their outdoor skills and holding back a unit from doing more advanced activities b/c it's outside their comfort zone.

 

Let's face it a SM does influence on what a troop does. I had one SM who was a runner and walker. We did a lot of hiking and camping. Another SM I knew was an aquatics nut, first time I ever heard of Quartermaster was when asked about his knot, and guess what, the troop started doing more aquatics based activities like canoe camping and motorboating.

 

I admit I'm not the perfect outdoorsman, plant ID and eco con stuff is a big weakness of mine, but I do have a lot of KSAs and experience in the outdoors that I'm comfortable taking out groups on HA trips. But there are SMs who do not have the KSA or experience to do this, and I guess that is what the advance training would be for.

[Eagle92]

Duplicate post(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Eagle92]

BP,

Mandatory training is on the way. FWIW, some trainings are already required, but there is no enforcement in that there is no double checking if the person has the training or not. We all know that SCOUTNET is not 100% accurate.

 

Also some units are not filling out the paperwork, but still going on trips.

[Beavah]

If there was a nationally ordained syllabus, the naysayers would complain about how weak and watered down and risk aversive it is and how it doesn't really cover what they think should be in it.

 

Yah, that's da risk of standardized stuff, eh? It tends to target the least common denominator. In fact if it doesn't, there'll be pressure from lots of disgruntled folks until it is dumbed down to the LCD.

 

Add to that the challenge other folks mention of difference in environment across the country, and some differences in trainin'/experience/interpretation, and it's hard to come up with good basics courses.

 

I'm more in favor of OGE's notion. Da BSA gets very insular at times. We're part of a bigger country, where some other groups have already done substantial work on this problem that we can use. What's more, when it comes to standards of care, that's who we're goin' to be judged against, eh? Those other groups set the "industry norms", at least when it comes to adult outdoor leader training.

 

Added bonus is that NOLS and other such groups actually conduct individual evaluations of participants on their skills and judgment. To my mind seat-time training ain't worth much without real evaluation and feedback.

 

Beavah

 

[Gunny2862]

And who is going to pick up the tab?

Those NOLS courses aren't cheap, unless the Troop can pay or Council can work a deal there are many Scoutmasters who will become former Scouting volunteers due to the basic cost/time away from work/travel to the NOLS course site/ more time away from family and of course recertification when that gets into the equation.

 

I'm a volunteer, sure I can quit, but the parents already aren't lining up for my spot.

Down goes another Troop.

I know lets' require Wilderness Medicine Surgeons/dual certified as NOLS Guides for each troop - How many troops have this available NOW?

 

Do I think training is a good idea, sure, always have, but mandatory this and mandatory that in addition to the "there's always room for just one more training course" WILL become a problem at some point.

[resqman]

The council down the street offered an advanced outdoors skill class a few months back. They named it LAST, Leader Advanced Skills Training.

 

Weekend class. They sent out a survery with 10 topics to be taught. In theory the most requested would be taught. Day before training, couple instructors became unavailable so they taught would they could. Budgeted 2 hours for each section.

 

2 hours on splices and lashing

2 hours on dovetails and mallet making

2 hours on GPS

2 hours on nite GPS

 

Because the classes being taught were not the ones people signed up for, several students had knowledge depth equal to the instructor in several cases. The GPS guy was a surveyor who had a $6000 (yes that is the correct number of zeros) GPS. Do to a lightening storm, field time was limited and he quickly ran out of classroom material. Nite GPS was to walk the same track we had entered into the GPS during the day. Star gazing was out due to weather.

 

The final class was really a session on how to improve the offering of LAST. Lots of ideas. The general consenus was that whatever topic was offered, should quickly cover any rank and merit badge requirements of that topic. Maybe 1/2 hr. to quickly cover the basics and them spend the rest of time in a hands on mode doing more indepth understanding, tricks, tips, spoilers, outside the box techinques, show stoppers, etc. Length of classes was discussed but the shortest time for any subject was half a day. Some topics might need an entire weekend to cover adequately.

 

There would be 10-15? topics and participants would choose those areas they wanted to learn more about. Kind of a segments around a single patch type idea. You could/would attend LAST training mulitple times and each time study a different topic(s).

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

No course is going to may anyone an expert. For that, go to NOLS. We just need basic outdoor training and ITOLS doesn't cut it.

 

An effective course would be one that didn't try to do too much. Just get the guys out in the field, doing what scouts do. Learn how to make fires, pitch tents, pack, clean, filter water, stay warm, stay dry, stay cool. But do it by doing it, not once, but for several days. And not sitting on a bench being lectured on it. Fill free time with stuff like GPS and other fun scout stuff. Three or four days of that and you will be confident to take your scouts out and do it again.

[Gunny2862]

Gern, now there's a suggestion I can buy into.

[Eagle92]

Ok this may be a hijack of my thread, but it's part of the training ideas that someone mentioned.

 

 

Someone stated that NOLS does indiviudal skills assessments. What if BSA came up with a program that would assess leaders skills and make recommendations on training based on it? That way those leaders who have the KSAs, but not the formal BSA training could get recognized, and those leaders who could use some additional training could be recognized and encouraged to attend.

 

Someone else stated that if we start requiring a bunch of training to do activities, we may lose a bunch of leaders. I'll take it a step further, it will prevent us from starting new units.

[OldGreyEagle]

When BadenP, Beavah and OGE all agree on an idea, it probably should be considerd, if nothing else just for the novelty of the situation.

 

If the NOLS classes are to much, what if NOLS would do a Train the Trainer kinda thing? Sponsored by the Council to allveviate cost concerns? Then those trainers train the scouters?

 

Gern's thought reminds me very much of a Venturing Kodiak Trek. Off to the woods to learn Leadership Skills (I will pause for the Leadership Rants to journey through your brain here) one two three four five six seven eight nine ten Now, rather than teach Leadership skills, perhaps the Kodiak format could be changed a bit to teach outdoor skills in the outdoors over a Trek. Could be canoes, could be backpacking, could be whitewater, depends on what you got in your neck of the woods. Maybe call it Kamchatka, an adulterized Kodiak. Do it with adults so there no one is afraid to ask questions with youth nearby. One of the reasons Powderhorns are so well liked is because the adults get to try stuff without having to defer to youth and they can ask any question. SO, mimic the environment and get the adults, without youth, in the outdoors with trained leaders (possibly Nols trained, maybe not)

 

Would seem to be a good idea, where do we start?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Gunny2862]

I don't know where to start but you are getting my buy-in.

 

I guess starting would either getting National to recognize the call for the program, the benefits and then authorizing and negotiating it with NOLS or other provider. Right?

[shortridge]

Besides NOLS, what other organizations do you (all) look to as training programs that set the standard?