Wood Badge controversies

[GernBlansten]

Sitting under a dining fly watching a powerpoint presentation on management techniques does not constitute outdoor training. IMHO.

 

Is it possible that a fully beaded WB'er never wore a backpack?

[eagle77]

Alright Gern, our WB course is a two weekend type course. On the first weekend we do most of the butt time. Get to know each other and do some simple tasks together. In between the first and second weekend we will have a patrol meeting set up and agreed to by the members of the patrol. At this meeting we discuss the menu and equipment needed for the second weekend. Each of us is given a task or item to get for this. This is all done by the members of the patrol, no WB staffer is involved. Sounds like the patrol method to me. On the second weekend we distribute the materials amongst ourselves and whatever is way to heavy will be driven in. We then put on our backpacks and hike the 2 miles to the camping area, there we are assigned patrol sites away from the other patrols. We then set up and get things together. Now there is some time where we are together under a large tarp, but not looking at any powerpoints. Here we get to work and listen to some of the presentations concerning the outdoor planning. I can't speak for how other councils hold their WB course, but ours was indoor and outdoor. But it seems to me that you are not pro WB so maybe it would not really matter anyway.

[gcnphkr]

Gee...here I thought we taught Scouters scoutcraft at IOLS. Granted it is superficial but it is enough to give novices the basics so that they can really learn it like scouts do--by being out in the woods (or desert in my case).

 

If Woodbadge had been about teaching me scoutcraft I would have passed. I earned my First Class about 40 years ago, I have no need for a week long course in how to whip, tie, lash, chop, carve, ignite, track, navigate, acquire food, cook, stay dry/warm/cool, bury my poop and not pee on a tree. Heck, I've even learned that while being able to light a fire with some flint and steel or a dried yucca is cool that I'd rather carry matches in a waterproof case. I'm not even sure I want to know a scouter who needs such a course and suspect that they use magnesium to start fires.

[GernBlansten]

Its not that I'm against WB. Far from it. My perception is that WB is the pinnacle training of an outdoor program, when it does not graduate outdoorsmen.

 

We have far too many leaders who are inept and downright dangerous in the wilds. Or too fearful of the wilds to take their youth out there.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gern, you have to decide, either "WB is held as the pinnacle of scouter education" or "My perception is that WB is the pinnacle training of an outdoor program".

 

Huge difference in your two thoughts. As I said earlier, Wood Badge may have District and Council Committee chairs attending as well as Den leaders, Cub Masters and the odd commissioner or two. Yes, none of these may have ever worn a backpack. They don't have to be woodsmen on the level of Nathaniel Bumpo to run the Council Financial Committee or a myriad of other duties.

 

Perhaps there should be an advanced Scoutcraft course, I would attend, but I wouldnt expect the Cubmaster from down the road to, or the Council Chairman, I would expect them to take the current version of Wood badge. Well, maybe not the Cubmaster although I would certainly encourage him to do so.

 

I also echo Gern's fear that we allow unskilled adults in the woods with youth, yet when we talk about manditory training, such as in place in the COuncil I serve, we see many people complaining how onerous it is to mandate training, that people don't need it to be leaders.

 

But basic outdoor skills need to be presented long before Wood Badge

[eagle77]

That is the rub. Many times the only reason an adult is wearing that SM or ASM patch is because he or she is the only one willing to put the time and effort into it. Again many times they are there just in body and never take the program to the fullness that they should. How much time and effort or training they take beyond what BSA mandates is up to them. I have seen many of the leaders that you describe. But I think its the same in any organization that depends strongly on volunteers. Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. By the way I have been in scouting for over 30 years but I do not really consider myself an outdoorsmen. I love the outdoors and respect it but I also have my limits both physically and knowledge. That is where some of these other guys loose it and just don't take the time or even have the time to further their knowledge and ability to love and appreciate the outdoors for what it really is.

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, I'm not a Wood-Basher (bein' a happy and proud ol' Beavah ).

 

But I reckon Gern, who seems to be channelin' the spirit of Kudu, has a point, eh?

 

In what I do I have contact with a whole bunch of leaders in a fairly wide variety of life pursuits. I'm pretty convinced there's no generic form of leadership. What works for leadership in fightin' fires is just plain different from what works for leadership in a Fortune 500 company, which is different again in leadership in a school, which is different than leadership in a NFP.

 

Now, what does seem to be pretty universal is that good leaders know their business really well, eh? And they learned da leadership they needed from workin' their business.

 

If our business is outdoor education, then I reckon da only way to develop good leaders is by helpin' 'em learn our business really well. That means startin' with developing proficient and confident outdoorsmen and women, and proficient and competent youth educators/mentors. The leadership comes only after that, eh? Otherwise we're just buildin' the house on sand.

 

So it might not be that da problem is with WB21C other than that it gives the perception of Highest Level of Training to folks who aren't really ready to lead. Da problem is there's nuthin' in what we do training-wise that develops proficient and confident outdoorsmen. An IOLS weekend doesn't cut it, eh? Leastways not if you're startin' from family campin' in a camper. And there's nuthin' in what we do training-wise that develops proficient and confident youth educators/mentors/coaches.

 

That's a failing, eh? In both cases, we pretty much have relied on people comin' in with those skills, like Jet526. But it's not a guarantee. Folks come with outdated skills sometimes, and some programs like LDS have a different way of selectin' leaders where prior skill might not be present.

 

I don't think any of us would ever consider runnin' a leadership seminar for a new lad who hadn't yet worked through da basics of T-2-1 outdoor skills and workin' with other guys in his patrol. So perhaps da problem isn't WB21C, it's the prerequisites for it? The youth and outdoor skill pieces that are missin'?

 

Beavah

 

[TAHAWK]

"I think it tells a deeper story. One about the direction of BSA. Its away from creating well rounded, confident outdoorsmen and towards creating well rounded, confident managers."

 

"Its not that I'm against WB. Far from it. My perception is that WB is the pinnacle training of an outdoor program, when it does not graduate outdoorsmen."

 

Garn, I looked and looked. I went way back in Scouting literature. Here is what I did NOT find:

 

"On my honor, I will do my best to become a well-rounded outdoorsman, . . . ."

 

"A Scout is: . . . a well-rounded outdoorsman."

 

 

To state the obvious, the Outdoor Program is A method - one of the methods designed to meet Scouting's aims of character, citizenship, and fitness in mind and body. It happens to be a method I love and elect to spend a lot of time on. I counsel Camping, Cooking, Hiking, Backpacking, and Wilderness Survival (which I think should be Eagle required). The Troop in which I am an SA tents every month here in Ohio -- or elsewhere on high adventure trips. But the goal is not, and has never been, to "create well-rounded outdoorsmen." As adults, we should not be confused between what BP called the "hook" and what he called the "bait."

 

That is not to say that there is anything wrong with wanting more outdoors skills instruction for Scouts and Scouters. A course to follow-up on IOLS would be good. Do it. My Council will be offering such a course.

 

By the way, labeling Wood Badge as "management" or "business" training rather than leadership training appeals to some as sound tactics for debate ("Fight the Hun"). It does not advance analysis. The issues, I think, are the absence of outdoor skills training in WB and whether the skills taught in WB assist the Scouter in leading and teaching youth. Many of the those leadership skills are common to both the second and present versions of Wood Badge. I think they help. (I do wish the syllabus was better.)

[OldGreyEagle]

Just an Observation, we are well on our second page of dicussing what Wood badge is and what it isnt and what it should be and no one's personality has been assasinated or at the very least attacked. It's great to see ideas and thoughts exchanged without acrimony towards the poster.

 

Make it work!

[BadenP]

Tahawk

I hear what you are saying but I think Beavah is dead on in his anaylsis of the current WB.

WoodBadge is considered the pinnacle of scoutleader training yet its emphasis seems a little off target. Outdoors is more than a method of scouting it is the centerpiece around which the rest of the program was developed and therefore should be the center of all WB training around which you incorporate the management and relationship pieces. Having been to both WB programs over the years and having two very different style training teams I can relate to those who say not enough of the outdoor skills in the current program. Management styles and relationship methods do vary greatly with different industries, as Beavah stated, but the outdoor method is something all of us in scouting share equally and really should be the focal point around which the WoodBadge program is developed and taught.

[sherminator505]

I've said this in other threads and I'll repeat it here. What is needed, I think, is a sequel to Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. As the name suggests, IOLS is just that. An introduction. As for Wood Badge, I took the course in 1993 and although there was an outdoor component, it wasn't the major focus. From what I hear and read of WB21C, outdoor skills are even less of a component today.

 

So it appears that we have identified a void in BSA leader training that many of the posters would like to see filled. Maybe it is time to look at developing an Advanced Outdoor Leader Skills course to complement IOLS. It wouldn't be intended as a replacement for WB21C, but would provide Scouters an opportunity to finish what they started in IOLS and build their proficiency as outdoor leaders.

[TAHAWK]

No argument from me about the centrality of the Outdoor Program to Boy Scouting and Venturing. But Wood Badge is now for Cubbing leaders as well, and the outdoors does not seem as central to Varsity Scouting.

 

In any case, there is an identification here of a void in training that is not being filed by the offerings at Philmont. That need can be filled by Districts and Councils. Some are already addressing the need. We can all be champions for advanced outdoor skills training wherever we are.

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, to be truthful, Venturing "Outdoor" Crews have the outdoor as their focus, however, Religious Life, Sports, Arts and Hobbies and Sea Scouts (ok, hard to be a Sea Scout and not be outdoors, but theirs is a specialized skill set) units are not Outdoor focused. Having the new advisor and Committee Chair of the local church's Religious Life Crew do Wood Badge and learn about scout craft won't help them much in their mission to have a youth lead Religious Life Crew

[SR540Beaver]

Surely you guys have heard of the Philmont Leadership Challenge haven't you? Yes. I know it is only offered at Philmont. In the beginning, so was Woodbadge. Then it moved into the councils.

 

http://www.philmontleadershipchallenge.org/

 

Ever since the resounding success of the National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience, which allows youth to hone their NYLT skills in an action packed adventure that teaches much more than Ranger skills, adults have been clamoring for a version of this course that they can attend. And here it is! The Philmont Leadership Challenge will allow Wood Badge (WB) trained adults to fully integrate the lessons learned on the Hill into their daily lives. Like our youth, you will live under the shadow of the Tooth of Time, and learn new skills based on Philmont Ranger Training. And, like the youth, you will discover this: True leadership is about helping others succeed.

 

There is no classroom work in this course! The Philmont Leadership Challenge (PLC) is built around a series of modules emphasizing advanced outdoor skills, including COPE, Wilderness First Aid, Advanced GPS use, and Search and Rescue Techniques. Your Wood Badge skills will come to life, as they are used in each and every module to master the challenges of the day. These skills move from an academic exercise to become a part of your day to day living, your day to day thinking, and of your very being. You live and practice Leave No Trace Principles, including a backpack trip into the pristine Lovers Leap Meadow camp. The History of Leadership Training, Philmont and the old West come alive. But most importantly, we underscore ethical decision making and living a life of servant leadership. Our motto will be the same as for the boys, which is Primus Inter Pares, or First Among Equals. And we too, will learn and live the Leader Oath:

 

I do hereby promise, on my honor as a Scout, that I will be a servant leader primus inter pares', first among equals, helping others grow and succeed for the good of all. As the sun dial measures the passage of time, so will my service be measured over time by my impact on others................

[John-in-KC]

The problem is Philmont Leadership Challenge:

 

- Is incredibly exclusive, in that there are only a few slots per year.

 

- Is conducted at 6000 feet above sea level (base height).

 

- Does not answer the need in the field for vastly more outdoor training for adults who would lead our youth members.

 

- Is incredibly expensive ... add the cost of R/T transportation to the cost of attendance.

 

It's had enough time, if the goal was to pilot it Nationally, then deploy it to Regions, to be pushed out.