Too Many Cooks?

[Eamonn]

Back when I was a Scout. Which was a long time back and in a different place across that pond that divides England and the USA.

Cubmasters and Assistant Cubmasters, seemed happy to work with these little fellows and happy to remain in Cub Scouting.

Troops had teams of adults who for the most part seemed to have been around for a very long time and were expected to remain around for a very long time.

Sure there were some young whippersnappers like myself who maybe snuck in and then snuck out after only a short term of leadership. Ten years in my case.

All the adult leaders that served in the District that I was in had been Scouts, most had been Scouts in the very same District.

The "Top Guys" (Commissioners, were the top guys in the UK.) in the District knew each other well. In my case they had seen me and watched me grow up. Many of the old timers had worked together for many years.

I don't ever remember a Troop, no matter what size, having more than ten or so adults who might be called leaders.

 

I don't ever remember anyone ever saying anything that sounded like "Training will help" Or "Go and attend training."

While of course each person had his own set of skills, things that he was good at and at times these skills seemed too resonate through the Troop that they were involved with.

I enjoyed camping and pioneering and because of that we as a Troop camped a lot and seemed to be forever building bigger and more ambitious pioneering projects.

I can't remember what the Training requirements were in the UK in the early 1970's? I do know that Wood Badge wasn't required.

I only attended because I was told it would look good as at that time I'd been selected to be an ASM for the upcoming 1975 World Jamboree.

My SM had been WB Trained, but he was the only adult in the Troop who was. A good many of the other Troops in the District had long time leaders who just had never taken the time or just didn't have the time.

While no one ever said it out loud Wood Badge was not seen as being that very important, maybe something that might be a nice thing to do if you had the time and the money.

 

When I went to WB , I went with Old Fred Jenkins. Fred was then about the same age as I am now. He was a King's Scout and had forgotten more about Scouts and Scouting than I'll ever know. He was a multi talented individual, with a wonderful sense of fun and adventure.

He only went because I was going.

We had a great time. We played Boy Scout for a week, build a wonderful monkey bridge on the Gilwell Training grounds, got yelled at for digging them up.

I think or like to think that we maybe did help some of the guys in our Patrol who might have lacked the skills we had.

 

Fast Forward.

A couple of years back, when OJ, my son was a Boy Scout. His Troop went off to summer camp with about 30 Scouts and 21 adults. (All men.)

Maybe 3 of these guys had any real skills. The rest were there for some reason that I'm not sure of? The camp is a 25 minute drive from home, so transportation really isn't an issue. I'm guessing that the main reason they were there was to keep an eye on their kid.

I was up at camp several times the week that OJ was there. Some of the hangers on only left the Troop camp site to use the bathroom and go for meals. They seemed to pass their time watching the fire, reading and chasing after their son.

 

A year or so past. The SM of the Troop has for personal reasons stood down and been replaced by a guy who couldn't tie a bowline if his life depended on it.

He has however managed to get the Troop a new very large trailer which on the side has the Troop number and "Where Eagles Fly" sign written!

 

We can go on and on about the quality of training and training's. We can say that the old course was better or worse than the new course.

Somehow I think we have a deeper problem.

A catch 22 type problem.

The guys who are now leaders were not brought up having the skills to start with they in turn of course can't pass the skills that they don't have to the Scouts who will be the next group of leaders.

I'm a nice fellow, I get on well with others and work well with other adults, but going to camp with 21 adults!! This would be my worst nightmare.

I have always seen my reason for being away from my nice warm comfortable bed and my loving family as to be there for the Scouts. Sure I have the best-est time, I enjoy every last minute of it and am grateful for the opportunity.

I don't see baby sitting a bunch of adults as being much fun.

I'm all for helping and doing all I can to help the guy who really wants to join in and learn the stuff that he might not know. I do think that after a few years he will pick up a lot of what is needed.

I don't think that any training course, old course, new course is going to provide him with the practical or life skills that are needed to become a great Scoutmaster.

This takes time and for people who never got exposed to the skills or learned the skills as Scouts? It takes even longer.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Eagle732]

So is the problem the trailer or the "Fly Like an Eagle"logo?

Or is it the old WB course was better than the new one, like we have a choice.

Or is it that leaders don't possess the skills you think they should have.

Or is it that there were, in your case case too many adults at summer camp. I wish I had that problem!

I guess I'm missing the point.

[desertrat77]

All the adults going to camp: I'll bet some went to keep watch over their kids. But most went for the simple fact that it was scout camp and they wanted to sleep in a tent, hike, row a boat, go for a swim, make a dutch oven cobbler, shoot a couple targets at the range, and the like. They probably went for the same reasons their scouts wanted to go to camp: to get outdoors and enjoy the company of people who share their same values!

 

So let's transfer this thought to adult leader training. How best are you going to get folks to training?

 

If it's uniquely scouting--outdoors, patrol method--you'll capture most.

 

If it resembles a meeting at work--indoors, droning briefer, discussions about the movement of cheese by rodents or the management of minutes--it's going to be tough to inspire folks to spend time doing that.

 

An aside: having adult training indoors and then making it like a pack meeting (singing the Grand Old Duke of York, etc.) is unpalatable too.

[Eamonn]

"...they wanted to sleep in a tent, hike, row a boat, go for a swim, make a dutch oven cobbler, shoot a couple targets at the range, and the like."

You can of course sleep in a tent and maybe cook a cobbler without leaving the Troop camp site. The other activities do mean that you do have to make some sort of an effort.

 

As for the point.

It's just too easy to blame the training or the quality of the training and the trainers, without taking into account the skill level of the participants.

Given the choice of going to camp with four or five people who knew what they were doing or taking an army of people who more than lightly will be gone within less than five years, I'd go with the four or five.

Eamonn.

 

[Eagle732]

"Given the choice of going to camp with four or five people who knew what they were doing or taking an army of people who more than lightly will be gone within less than five years, I'd go with the four or five."

 

Yea I agree that too many adults could create problems.

Parents going just to watch their kids is a problem. They need to understand the program and what we are trying to accomplish.

As far as our leader's skills, hopefully at least some of the adults will have some outdoor experience.

 

 

 

[Narraticong]

I found your points perfectly clear Eamonn. We had 14 boys attending camp this summer and 6 or 7 leaders wanting to attend. I know several were going just to babysit. As is my privilege as Scoutmaster, I invited those adults I thought would be the most benefit to the boys. Two of us in camp all week and three others spent partial weeks. Each was selected for the role they could play. Only one is particularly experienced, but all of them "get it". They understand that everything we do is about the boys.

 

Our troop will soon celebrate our First Eagle Scout. He will also leave for college out of state this fall and quickly turn 18. I have already informed him that he will be listed as an ASM on our next Charter. I'll expect him to get training as soon as he can. And when he comes home on breaks, I expect to see him. This is where our next generation of leadership must come from.

 

For a whole year I bothered our Council professionals with a wild concept. My idea was to start a local chapter of NESA with the sole purpose of gaining new adults volunteers. As the voice of experience I can vouch that there are Eagles out there who would gladly contribute in any number of ways. But many are distracted with new careers and families. We just have to find them and let them know they are needed. No Eagle worth his wings will say no.

 

I was very disapponted when the professionals saw very little worth in starting a new NESA chapter. I received lots of emails saying it was a nice idea and they would consider it. I also had lots of old time Scouters telling me it would never happen. Not being one to give up, I pressed on for a year. Finally, a search for Eagles was started. My hopes were lifted. But only to be dashed when I found the search had nothing to do with gaining new volunteers. The professionals were only searching for potential dollars. Eagles, generally being successful men, might have some serious money for FOS.

 

Which brings me to another point. Not only do we have many volunteers with no background in Scouting, the same can be said for our professionals. Many lack any experience in Scouting and just don't "get it". They can raise money, but they can't get in front of a crowd and speak from an experienced heart.

 

Eamonn knows the kind of guys I am talking about. They have a really pretty trailer with lots of high tech gear. But that nice trailer is totally empty of Scout Skills...

 

Ken

 

[ghermanno]

Eamonn,

 

Yes you are correct, it is a "Catch-22". We need funding to continue but we need even more funding to fund the people who's job it is to obtain funding. We could end up with a BSA with nothing but BA degrees (no Scout skills).

 

Our problem, as Volunteers is to ensure the "Management" of BSA understands that it is still an outdoor group not a Fundraising organization that recruits boys for fundraising. We also need to speak-up if/when we see that the training is going south. We may not make a big difference but if we say nothing, then we are also responsible for the SM that can't tie a bowline to save his (or anyone elses) life.

 

Yes, we need people to raise money, but we also need volunteers to help the boys learn. Your SM sounds more like a "Finance Committee" person to me. Right guy, wrong job.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

YiS,

 

Rick

[SR540Beaver]

I was a Cub Scout back in the 60's. I really didn't have an interest in Boy Scouts and dropped when it was time to crossover. Fast forward a few decades and my son joined Cubs as a Webelos where I dropped out and has been a Boy Scout since February 2004. I'm an ASM in his troop. Other than our twice annual family vacations camping in an old canvas tent and cooking on a Coleman stove at the lake and running trot lines several times a day, I didn't have that many outdoor skills or Scouting experience. Besides, my parents did the work and us kids swam and played.

 

Once I bought into this whole Scouter thing, I embraced it fully. I've taken every training (good or bad) that is available and even participated as training staff for things like IOLS and WB. I rarely miss an outing and have camped from one extreme to the other tempature-wise and from state parks with hot showers and flush toilets to primitive camping under the stars. I've run the new scout program in our troop where we work on taking them from Tenderfoot to First Class. Was there a learning curve? Sure. Did I learn it? Yeah. Can you tell a difference between me and the adults in the troop who were Scouts? Not really. Are there some adults unwilling to put forth any effort at learning outdoor skills and view Scouting as a hobby? Sure. They usually have those really small troops that are struggling to survive that go on campouts and just hang out poking sticks in the fire.

 

I look at Scouting much the same way I do my church experience. I'm an evangelical Christian. We don't just go out looking for people that came from a family with a Christian background and recruit them into our church. We reach out to anyone and everyone and teach them what being a Christian is about and how to live their lives accordingly.

 

I'm thankful for those oldtimers who have been around scouting forever, but I'm also thankful for the newcomers who embrace it with enthusiasm. There are both oldtimers and newcomers who "get it" and both who don't.

[desertrat77]

Eamonn,

 

I may have indeed missed the point...but I respectfully submit those adults attending camp, whatever their intention, deserve more consideration. They took a week off from work, family and whatever other commitments they have in life to attend camp. Having attending several camps where there were as many adults as kids, it worked fine because the adults knew going in what their role was--and it wasn't to babysit their own kid. They knew they were going to have some responsibility to the troop and camp as a whole.

 

True, if there is a herd of untrained, overbearing parents attending camp, it can be chaos. But I haven't seen that, as a scout or a scouter.

 

Even if they attend as the greenest, most basically trained adult in the BSA, they can't help but leave that week of camp with a new appreciation for scouting, and hopefully this will spark more interest and participation in an official role year round. It's a great opportunity to really sell the best scouting has to offer--namely, leadership in the great outdoors. Too often, our very best selling points for recruiting scouts and scouters are downplayed.

 

At the end of the day, it's up to each troop to decide. But it's my experience that adults who attend camp, whatever their original motivation, always leave camp with a deep thankfulness for the experience.

 

Narraticong, your comments about the lack of support at council for NESA really got me thinking. Of the councils I've been in, I can't recall much support for NESA in any of them. Sure, there might be a perfunctory call for Eagles once a year to attend a dinner, or drum up donations, but little else. The council I'm in now has an Eagle alum association, but it's of their own design and I haven't seen a single mention it was connected with NESA.

 

Talk about an untapped resource!

 

So why the lack of push? The reasons why could start another thread.

[Eamonn]

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the charter of the Troop that had gone to camp with all the adults.

I know that a lot has gone on since the camp.

As I posted the then SM is no longer SM.

I feel sad about that. His wife was a truly wonderful person, who was for a while one of my Assistant District Commissioners. She had a long and brave fight against cancer.

Both her and her husband are deeply religious and found great strength in their faith.

When we found out that HWMBO had cancer, she was a great source of strength for HWMBO and myself. She was very worried that when she was no longer around that her husband would step down and had asked that I try and stop him.

He has of course stepped down and the truth is that there was no way I could prevent it from happening.

They had three sons all are Eagle Scouts.

This SM, who while I didn't always agree with what he did or the way he went about doing it! (As OJ was a Scout in the Troop, I very often had at times to take plenty of no notice!) Was/ is a nice guy. He had been recognized with a Silver Beaver and had been SM for the Jambo a couple of times back in the 1990's.

The Troop is now down to 15 Scouts.

Looking at the ages it seems that six are little fellows who crossed over this year, about six are older guys who have been around for a while, a couple are Scouts who went to the 2005 Jamboree with me, the rest are a mixed bag.

The adults listed on the charter are many. It seems that anyone and everyone who has ever been in the Troop is listed.

The old SM's three sons are listed, one lives in Washington DC and one in Montana.

I don't know what has happened or why the Troop is in such hot water or what has gone wrong?

The parents I seen at that summer camp, were parents of younger Lads.

Our local School District moves kids from Elementary, too Junior High and then on to High School all the schools are in different buildings /locations. Of course when they get to the HS there is a lot of after-school activities.

OJ was hard pressed to keep up and he wasn't involved in any of the activities that eat up a lot of time, I'm thinking of football and band.

 

In the last strategic plan that National put out, they talked about one million new volunteers.

While this sounds great.

There is no way local Councils can manage to train that number of people.

Talking with a very nice Lady from our local United Way. She tells me that the new trend for volunteers is for them to come in take on one specific job and then move on out.

One codgers like myself who hang around forever are not the norm!

In fact the local U/W does each year gather up a willing band of volunteers who spend a day or two doing stuff for the Council, mainly painting and work like that.

If the million volunteers that National talks of are people who are willing to come in for a couple of days that is one thing.

But if we are going to invest the time of volunteers teaching and training people who are not going to be around for very long? We need to take a long hard look at what we are training them in and for.

Eamonn.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I really hate when old guys start to bemoan the passing of time and facing change, but I am going to so there you go.

 

it seems like the the new generation of parents, age 40 or so, do not have the same volunteer ethic that my parents or I do. it's not a bad thing, just an Observation. it gets bad when they start to demand things from people who are "volunteers" and this fact seems to pass them by. Then there is the experience factor. I grew up in a Chicago suburb in the 50's and 60's. All the kids on the black knew how to start a fire, we all burned leaves in the fall, we all burned household paper and a few families still burned garbage. Fire tending was skill we all had. Most dads knew ho to fell a tree and hiring a tree service would have caused you to get laughed out of the neighborhood. The fathers took the tree down and for the rest of the week or so, the kids took turns sawing the thing up or spliting the wood. We would be outside from sunup to sundown, or so it seemed. We fished in the creek using line tied to a stick as the creek was far to muddy to mess up your real fishing tackle with. Even non-scouts carried a pocket knife and we showed off new ones in the playground and the teachers may have admired a few as well.

 

OK, I know its different now. But as we have become a much more urban oriented, indoor, out of the outdoor society, we have lost much of the woodcraft skills that were once taken for granted. The new fathers who come in with their crossed over scouts may never have handled an axe before, and are not sure they want to split a cord of wood. As if they know that a cord is a measurement of wood. Their fireplace is gas supplied of course. They don't barbecue on charcoal, they have a propane grill. None of this is bad, its just how things change, but also lost is the ability to not be freaked out that you will be sleeping outside for a few days. There was a TV comercial with a kindergarten age kid saying you should "share toys, not germs", it was an ad for an antiseptic hand cleaner. And we wonder why kids freak if you put a worm in their hands. Unclean get a really bad rap.

How do we teach woodcraft to those who have no background experience in anything remotely connected to outdoor skills?

 

What does it take to get them to a competent level? Can we agree what constitutes a competent level? Once there, how long do we expect to keep them? The Disitrct Committee has had the same 70% or so core for about 5 years now, new people start and then leave after a few years, just as they started to underestand the program because their youth aged out How do we keep the trained, the knowledgeable?

[BadenP]

In our council the average volunteer term is 1-2 years period. Reasons include the position takes too much time, busy with work or other leisure pursuits, etc., etc., and the council does a good job getting these people fully trained in the first year.

 

The saddest part is that when the parent leaves the program usually the kids do too, and thats what really gets me. I have seen so many good kids over the years who loved scouting have to drop out because the lack of committment of the parents to help out or even just get them to the meetings. It is indeed a sad commentary on our texting and twittering society today where "ME" is the only thing of importantance.

[SR540Beaver]

BP,

 

I started to say that I didn't agree with what you said, but I reread and noticed the word "average". One to two years is probably the average when you factor in Cubs. I've been active as a Scouter since 2002 and have no plans to go anywhere soon. I know many people in our council who have been in far longer than me whose kids have been out for 5 to 10 years. But taking Cubs into the mix, 1 to 2 years could indeed be the average. At the risk of attracting the ire of the "Wood Badge is bad" fellow, we specifically target Cub leaders for WB. TRoops tend to have folks who have been in the BSA longer and there is more continuity in the Troop. Cubs tends to be where the wheel keeps getting reinvented year after year with people dropping in and dropping out. We have found that the Packs become much stronger and the volunteers more dedicated to Scouting if we can get them into WB early and in the groove.

[desertrat77]

SR540Beaver, we can indeed start another WB debate here, but I like the strategy of including new volunteers early. Despite my personal reservations about the WB program, the one benefit it does have is it really makes most participants feel like they are joining something bigger than themselves.

 

I've mentioned this before, and believe it's true: we can encourage that same camaraderie and depth of scouting spirit in our basic adult leader training...but we don't. It's either the whole WB experience or a square-filling, assembly line process to get basic training.

 

If we put some of the flair and sense of belonging from WB into basic adult leader training (at all levels), we might have folks stick around longer.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[Eamonn]

"It is indeed a sad commentary on our texting and twittering society today where "ME" is the only thing of importance."

Everything I have read points to the exact opposite.

It seems that more and more people especially young people are in fact volunteering.

 

But..

I suppose before I can ask people to volunteer I need to have some idea what I want?

To do this I need to do my best to try and see what the youth want.

Truth is I don't think the expectations of the youth we serve today are that much different than what I expected as a Lad.

I wanted to have fun

I wanted to hang out with my pals.

I wanted to do stuff away from the watchful eye of my parents.

I wanted to be accepted for who and what I was.

I wanted to do new things, go to new places.

Once I was in I found that:

I enjoyed the rough games.

I enjoyed the adults who didn't make me sit down and listen. (I'd done that all day at school.)

I enjoyed the fact that the adults and other members of the Troop were willing to trust me.

I enjoyed being recognized.

When I was very young I imagined myself as being all sorts of hero type people exploring new and dangerous new territory. One day I might be Daniel Boone, the next BP in Africa and so on, in time I kinda outgrew this, but when confronted with a nuclear isotope and a chance to save the world? I was your man.

So with this in mind what do I expect from a volunteer who signs on to work with our Scouts.

I want a person who likes kids,all kids not just the ones that live in his or her house.

I want someone who likes to have fun and looks for ways of having fun.

I want someone who really cares for kids and will keep them safe and do everything possible to prevent them from getting hurt.

While I believe that we all have faults and that no one is perfect, I would hope that the person is a good person who sets a good example for the Scouts, both inside and outside of Scouting.

Just as I would expect a soccer coach to know about soccer, I would hope that the person has the skills to know about what Scouts do: Outdoor type stuff.

I like and respect our good pal SR540Beaver.

While I'm not mad about talking about religion.

He posted:

"We don't just go out looking for people that came from a family with a Christian background and recruit them into our church. We reach out to anyone and everyone and teach them what being a Christian is about and how to live their lives accordingly."

While I'm very happy being a Roman Catholic with no intend on ever changing.

I think that were I to join the church that he is a member of, my transition wouldn't be as hard for me as it would be for a guy who had been brought up as a Jainism Digambar monk.

But just as important if not more so would be my intent.

Some years back OJ informed me that he was thinking of becoming a Methodist! When I asked him why? He said that he liked the way that they sat down for most of their services and that he didn't like kneeling!

If my only reason for joining Beavers church was because I'd heard that they have a wonderful Fellowship Breakfast a couple of times of month. I might want to take a long hard look at my reasoning.

Is this not also true when it comes to signing on as a Scouter.

Eamonn.