How has training changed and is it for the better?

[SR540Beaver]

Kudu,

 

It wasn't a personal attack, it was a factual statement. You are arrogant to believe that YOU are THE national expert. You might recognize yourself as such, but it is arrogant to assume everyone else does too.

 

I am WB trained as are 11 other adults in the troop I serve. I and 6 of those folks have staffed WB. Our last 2 SPL's have both staffed NYLT the past 2 years. We are proud advocates of the boy led patrol method. Hard to believe, but it happens.

[Kudu]

Nothing escapes you, does it SR540Beaver?

 

In case anyone was distracted by SR540Beaver's "factual statement," the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster & ASM Specific Training still:

 

1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

 

2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

 

3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group."

 

Kudu

 

[asm 411]

There are many Wood Badge holders that have done what we were taught to do, "Use our resources". We work with troops that are made up of Patrols and are training our Scouts both in Scoutcraft based leadership and Wood Badge based management techniques. Only a fool would through out one side or the other completely.

 

I think it is the melding of the two that truly help Scouts grow into great individuals who are respected by their peers and can go out into the world and make a positive impact with all that they do.

 

[SR540Beaver]

And yet, the patrol method is still strong, alive and well in many troops while not in others........as it has always been.

[TAHAWK]

Rick,

 

If you are, as you claim, the only person to have read the offending langauge, how is that language damaging the training process? Why are you publicising the offending language?

 

I admit that I have not read the Scoutmaster/SA speficic syllabus in years. I have used my notes. I will get a copy. Pardon me if I suspect there may be a context issue with your claims.

 

For now, the very Heart of Darkness in your world, National Council, says this about the Patrol Method:

 

 

Patrol Leader

 

"The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method."

 

Lord Baden-Powell, Scouting's founder

 

The Patrol

 

The patrol is a group of Scouts who belong to a troop and who are probably similar in age, development, and interests. The patrol method allows Scouts to interact in a small group outside the larger troop context, working together as a team and sharing the responsibility of making their patrol a success. A patrol takes pride in its identity, and the members strive to make their patrol the best it can be. Patrols will sometimes join with other patrols to learn skills and complete advancement requirements. At other times they will compete against those same patrols in Scout skills and athletic competitions.

 

The members of each patrol elect one of their own to serve as patrol leader. The troop determines the requirements for patrol leaders, such as rank and age. To give more youths the opportunity to lead, most troops elect patrol leaders twice a year. Some may have elections more often.

 

Patrol size depends upon a troop's enrollment and the needs of its members, though an ideal patrol size is eight Scouts. Patrols with fewer than eight Scouts should try to recruit new members to get their patrol size up to the ideal number.

. . .

 

Patrol Meetings

 

Patrol meetings may be held at any time and place. Many troops set aside a portion of each troop meeting for its patrols to gather. Others encourage patrols to meet on a different evening at the home of a patrol member. The frequency of patrol meetings is determined by upcoming events and activities that require planning and discussion.

 

Patrol meetings should be well-planned and businesslike. Typically, the patrol leader calls the meeting to order, the scribe collects dues, and the assistant patrol leader reports on advancement. The patrol leader should report any information from the latest patrol leaders' council meeting. The bulk of the meeting should be devoted to planning upcoming activities, with specific assignments made to each patrol member.

 

Patrol Activities

 

Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes and service projects independent of the troop, as long as they follow two rules:

 

The Scoutmaster approves the activity.

The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.

 

Patrol Spirit

 

Patrol spirit is the glue that holds the patrol together and keeps it going. Building patrol spirit takes time, because it is shaped by a patrol's experiencesgood and bad. Often misadventures such as enduring a thunderstorm or getting lost in the woods will contribute much in pulling a patrol together. Many other elements also will help build patrol spirit. Creating a patrol identity and traditions will help build each patrol member's sense of belonging.

 

Every patrol needs a good name. Usually, the patrol chooses its name from nature, a plant or animal, or something that makes the patrol unique. A patrol might choose an object for its outstanding quality. For example, sharks are strong swimmers and buffaloes love to roam. The patrol may want to add an adjective to spice up the patrol name, such as the Soaring Hawks or the Rambunctious Raccoons.

 

A patrol flag is the patrol's trademark, and it should be a good one. Have a competition to see who comes up with the best design and who is the best artist. Make the flag out of a heavy canvas and use permanent markers to decorate it. In addition to the patrol name, the patrol flag should have the troop number on it as well as the names of all the patrol members. Mount the flag on a pole, which also can be decorated. Remember, the patrol flag should go wherever the patrol goes.

 

Every patrol has a patrol yell, which should be short and snappy. Choose words that fit the patrol's goals. Use the yell to announce to other patrols that your patrol is ready to eat or has won a patrol competition. Some patrols also have a patrol song.

 

Other patrol traditions include printing the patrol logo on the chuck box and other patrol property. Many troops designate patrol corners somewhere in the troop meeting room; patrols may decorate their corner in their own special way. Some patrols like to specialize in doing something extremely well, such as cooking peach cobbler or hobo stew.

 

The Patrol Leaders' Council

 

As a patrol leader, you are a member of the patrol leaders' council, and you serve as the voice of your patrol members. You should present the ideas and concerns of your patrol and in turn share the decisions of the patrol leaders' council with your patrol members.

 

The patrol leaders' council is made up of the senior patrol leader, who presides over the meetings; the assistant senior patrol leader, all patrol leaders, and the troop guide. The patrol leaders' council plans the yearly troop program at the annual troop program planning conference. It then meets monthly to fine-tune the plans for the upcoming month.

 

Your Duties as Patrol Leader

 

When you accepted the position of patrol leader, you agreed to provide service and leadership to your patrol and troop. No doubt you will take this responsibility seriously, but you will also find it fun and rewarding. As a patrol leader, you are expected to do the following:

 

 

Plan and lead patrol meetings and activities.

Keep patrol members informed.

Assign each patrol member a specific duty.

Represent your patrol at all patrol leaders' council meetings and the annual program planning conference.

Prepare the patrol to participate in all troop activities.

Work with other troop leaders to make the troop run well.

Know the abilities of each patrol member.

Set a good example.

Wear the Scout uniform correctly.

Live by the Scout Oath and Law.

Show and develop patrol."

 

spirit.http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx

 

It is simply not reasonable to me to read this language and not see that the Patrol Method as currently described by B.S.A. requires patrols with an identity separate from the troop.

 

That is what is taught in my council in Scoutmaster Specific Training and modeled in IOLS and Wood Badge.

 

The Patrol Method as currently taught also includes leadership by the Scouts, as described above. If adults do not put the method into action, that is not for lack of training otherwise. Adultss who WILL lead have been a problem before you were born - heck, forever (in Scouting years).

 

Wood Badge in its first two versions assumed that the participants understood the Patrol Method. That may have been reasonable when it was a course for relative vets. Now, Wood Badge training expressly teaches that the ultimate goal of adults in the unit is to watch the scouts lead: "Explain -Demonstrate - Guide - ENABLE" You have to be real thick to think that Wood Badge portrays your role as an adult to be the planner/leader of the unit's program, much less the patrol's activities. Current Wood Badge is fully consistent with what I have been taught about the Patrol Method over the decades.

 

"If I remember correctly the Troop that Tahawk belonged to as a Scout did not use Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course. Likewise when he became an adult leader he did not follow the BSA program either. So of course he would not address the specific issue of White Stag's destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training, even though he is old enough to have experienced it directly."

 

Hmmm.

 

Rick, with two exceptions, the then-current official B.S.A. training syllabii were used when I was trained or training from 1956-1962 and from 1982 to date. The Training Chairman when I was a Scout used Scouts as presenters in the adult courses to model the notion that Scouts were competent and capable of leading, and I have done the same. Patrols in that troop were required to have patrol campoutS AND hikeS over and above troop outings. I was the 48th PL of the Eagle Patrol of Troop 43 (founded 1908 on the basis of Scouting for Boys), and I proudly placed my initials on the flag staff with the others. (Real easy in those days to identify the Patrol leader from a distance. He was the one with the patrol flag.)

 

Exception 1: I took something called "White Stag" as a weekend "experimental" training course for [jr.] leaders in 1960 in LA. What we were told was was fully consistent with what I had been taught about the Patrol Method, formally and by observation and experience, in the prior six years. It was sponsored by LA Council, but not sure if it was fully "official."

 

Exception 2: As I noted, I have used the old district-level [jr.] leader syllabus recently since there is no other syllabus available and many Scoutmasters, being new, want help training their leaders.

 

So far as I know, I have followed the BSA program to the best of my ability whenever I have been in charge (with the exception noted) and counseled the same when I was not in charge, while attempting to secure changes when I thought it appropriate. (Anyone know who's responsible for the Wilderness Survival MB pamphlet?)

 

I note that official literature is not always consistent regarding details of the program, such as how to wash dishes or how to tie a tripod lashing.

[Kudu]

Tahawk writes:

 

If you are, as you claim, the only person to have read the offending language, how is that language damaging the training process? Why are you publicising the offending language?

 

Because when I staff Council-level training, I follow the BSA's script. If I do not agree with the BSA's program I still follow the script (not my "notes"), but I seek change by discussing it in public forums. Contrary to general opinion, the BSA does read this stuff and it does sometimes incorporate into the program ideas advanced by outspoken critics like me, even though our ideas are savagely attacked by Holders of the Wood Badge who use personal attacks to defend bad BSA policy. The new outdoor Uniform is a perfect example.

 

Tahawk writes:

 

For now, the very Heart of Darkness in your world, National Council, says this about the Patrol Method:

 

The topic is training, not the pretty words in the printed literature so I won't reply line by line, but I note three things.

 

1) The fake Baden-Powell quote is the same fake Baden-Powell quote used at the beginning of the Patrol Method session of SM-specific training.

 

To answer the topic question: The fake quotes sprinkled throughout printed BSA literature reflect the lack of familiarity of our indoor office manager training gurus with what Bill Hillcourt called "Real" Scouting.

 

2) The following clearly indicates that the purpose of regular elections is to encourage very rapid turnover: "To give more youths the opportunity to lead, most troops elect patrol leaders twice a year. Some may have elections more often."

 

To answer the topic question: Six month election cycles is why "Real Patrols" are no longer defined by a Patrol Leader's ability to lead regular Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without direct adult supervision. This allows White Stag to end position-specific training for Patrol Leaders so that generic training can concentrate on indoor manager skills rather than on applied Scoutcraft adventures.

 

3) The duties of the Patrol Leader listed could only warm the heart of an indoor office manager.

 

To answer the topic question: Before White Stag Wood Badge, a Patrol Leader's training focused on leading Patrol Hikes without adult supervision. The Patrol Leaders duties therefore included "Scoutcraft knowledge," PATROL HIKES, and Patrol activities. Listing only "Troop activities" is the "Troop Method."

 

I wrote:

 

If I remember correctly the Troop that Tahawk belonged to as a Scout did not use Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course. Likewise when he became an adult leader he did not follow the BSA program either. So of course he would not address the specific issue of White Stag's destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training, even though he is old enough to have experienced it directly.

 

To which Tahawk replies:

 

Patrols in that troop were required to have patrol campoutS AND hikeS over and above troop outings.

 

The point of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course is to lead these Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION. This was also emphasised in the Handbook for Scoutmasters. This is why Bill Hillcourt fought so hard against White Stag Wood Badge which dumbs training down so that the little indoor managers can be replaced every six months.

 

As you wrote:

 

In Boy Scouting, adults are present. That is an absolute requirement...

 

PL's did not lead "adult-free" campouts in 1954 when I became a Scout. They did run sorta' adult-free Patrol meetings each and every week (Mom was usually somewhere in the background and would respond to serious crashes.). But there was always an adult (dad) or two on a patrol campout or hike, and we were supposed to have at least six such activities per year...

 

But adults should be present, and that's the law in Boy Scouting.

 

Kudu

 

[BadenP]

Kudu,

I bet you are beginning to feel like Merlyn does in this forum, strong convictions with little support. You have some valid points which get lost in the arguments, I know from personnal experience. The BSA program is only as good as the training of the leaders, adult and youth, many troops I know have an excellent outdoor program following the basic precepts of BP, while others are little more than hobby clubs and rank/mb factories, unfortunately thats the way it has been for a long time and probably always will be. IMHO, it is not WoodBadge that is at fault but the lazyness and lack of committment of time and necessary training of a growing number of leaders. The good news is that many of those troops do not last very long, hence the serious drop in boy scout troops over the last 20 years, the ones that survive are stronger because of their sticking to a strong outdoor emphasis.

 

I also agree I do not like the direction the new CSE is taking the program, however the good troops will survive. The good old days of scouting as you describe them are gone forever, but with all their good points there were also excessive hazing incidents, such as in my troop as a youth all the new scouts had to run a long gauntlet of paddle swats as an indoctrination into the troop. While I believe facing certain risks is part of growing up many scoutmasters crossed the line and exposed the boys to potential serious risks. Certain OA ordeals I witnessed also seriously crossed the line. So yeah the boys don't hike along the edge of the cliff anymore at the same time the world is a very different place than it was 20, 40, or 100 years ago. Kudu, keep fighting your fight for retaining and strengthening the outdoor emphasis in the BSA, that is a worthwhile fight which I support and don't sweat the small stuff, past history is exactly that time to deal with the here and now.

YIS

[Kudu]

BadenP writes:

 

IMHO, it is not Wood Badge that is at fault but the laziness and lack of commitment of time and necessary training of a growing number of leaders.

 

We can't change human nature: If it wasn't for laziness, humans would never have invented the wheel and the remote control

 

To answer the topic question: The problem with Wood Badge is that we moved from

 

Bill Hillcourt's Scoutcraft model:

 

Leadership = Our Physical Relationship to Nature

 

to the White Stag model:

 

Leadership = A Leadership State of Mind.

 

Many Wood Badge courses still space the Patrols properly, approximately Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart. That is why so many participants leave Wood Badge feeling that they have experienced the Patrol Method for perhaps the first time in their lives.

 

Because they, um, have.

 

But that distance (The Patrols' Physical Relationship to Each Other) is NEVER pointed out, so they attribute their Patrol Method experience to having achieved the "Leadership State of Mind."

 

My work would be done if Wood Badge took 10 minutes to point out to the participants the physical distance between their Patrols, and to require them to write that down as the IDEAL.

 

Not required as Baden-Powell insisted, mind you, but the ideal.

 

Something they might try at least once in their lives just to see what happens when their Troop's most competent Scout Patrol camps the same way the adult leaders did at Wood Badge.

 

Once you define the Patrol Method IDEAL in terms of Physical Relationships (distance - as all Scouting in the world did before White Stag), then the theory will follow.

 

Kudu

 

[TAHAWK]

Rick,

 

So you are the only one who has noticed this language and so you make a point of pointing it out to the trainees - probably phrased something like your posts here?

 

And if you are the only one who noticed, all the other trainers are like me - continuting to teach that the patrol has a separate identify and activities, led by the PL?

 

Pardon me, but I see a practical solution to the problem. Stop what you're doing.

 

As for the quote you brush off, I only cited it as relevant to your claim that BSA is teaching the patrol and troop are the same thing. Clearly, BSA is not teaching that on its website - or in the new Handbook for that matter. BSA is not teaching that. According to you, as the only person who spoted the supposed langauge from the training syllabus, you are the only person teaching that. But I don't truly believe you would do that as you beleive too strongly in Scouting via the patrol.

 

On the OT point, We have one troop in our district holding elections other than on an annual basis. Ain't my troop. (SM of that troop thinks eneryone who wants to should be allowed in OA. Takes all kinds - if it has to - I guess.)

 

As for adults at patrol outings in my old troop, I think I told you we had no cool places to go patrol hiking or camping that didn't need a car -- or two -- to get there. Snata Ana was in the midst of the Southern California megalopolis. A hike to Santiago park loses its alure pretty quickly. After driving intil nearly midnight to get to the good stuff in the San Bernadino Mountains, the dad -- or two -- who wanted to stay and watch could hardly be begrudged the opportunity to watch their kid have fun before driving us back on Sunday afternoon, so long as he kept his hands off. ("The dad is essential to the program, but he may also be the natural enemy of boy leaders in the patrol and troop." William Smith, 1957)

 

I notice that the source of the statement that Bill fought the 1972 changes tooth and nail seems to come exclusively from the White Stag folk, who seem to portray Bill as an obstructionist. Do you have the words from the man himself? Again, by February, 1992, he was urging Scouters to take the Course. And his mental accuity then seemed just fine.

 

And Rick, my notes were based on the syllabus.

 

[Kudu]

Tahawk writes:

 

So you are the only one who has noticed this language and so you make a point of pointing it out to the trainees - probably phrased something like your posts here?

 

You mean follow the BSA script, but then explain to everyone why it sucks?

 

No.

 

What is the point of going off the reservation at the Council level?

 

Nobody there can influence national policy.

 

Tahawk writes:

 

And if you are the only one who noticed, all the other trainers are like me - continuing to teach that the patrol has a separate identify and activities, led by the PL?

 

Yes, I have noticed that most trainers teach what they THINK must be in the course outline. I am the one who follows the script. It is in my own words, but anyone from the Training Committee who sits in the back of the room with the course outline can follow along point by point by point.

 

At the Council training level I am predictable.

 

Tahawk writes:

 

And Rick, my notes were based on the syllabus.

 

In that case you already know that the meat of the "Patrol Method" session is a leadership theory in which the adult matches his or her "adult leadership style" to the "needs of the group." It is all very generic, the message being that the same process works for all groups. At one end of the scale is the "patrol/troop/group" that "needs" to be directed by the adult (illustrated by the adult telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire). At the other end of the scale is the more autonomous "patrol/troop/group" that needs little or no direction from the adult.

 

I use what I call the "Socratic Trick Question Method," in which at the end of every couple paragraphs of the BSA script, I ask a random participant an exaggerated trick question to see if he or she understands what I just said. It sounds like that might take more time, but I can get through the material more quickly if the participants are paying attention to every point because one of them will soon be called on.

 

When I get to the end of the Patrol Method session script I say "OK, put your pencils down." I tell them how many minutes are left in the time allotted for the session, and ask "Now how are you going to match these "adult leadership styles" to the "needs" of your own Patrols next week?"

 

Then I give a historical overview of Baden-Powell's and Bill Hillcourt's definitions of Patrols as being defined by hiking and camping without adult supervision (to everyone's horror), and then my own experience with such Patrols (both as a Scout and as an adult leader).

 

Then I give my own recommendation: Wood Badge Patrols are spaced Baden-Powell's 300 feet apart, simply match your "adult leadership style" to the "needs of each patrol/troop/group" by physical distance: Inexperienced or untrustworthy Patrols close the the adults, and truly autonomous Patrols B-P's "Wood Badge distance" apart.

 

So as far as the participants are aware, the theory of "adult leadership styles" is consistent with the history and tradition of Scouting, and what they can do next week with the Scouts in their own Troops.

 

I agree with you, Tahawk, the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster-specific training SHOULD be about "each patrol has a separate identify and activities, led by the PL."

 

But it's not.

 

Kudu

 

[TAHAWK]

Rick,

 

The Training Chairman from another district is going to loan me his syllabus. Ours TC is on vacation. I still cannot believe that the language you have quoted does not have a different message in context than that which you attribute to BSA. That is, I honestly can't see National Counsel subverting the concept of Patrols as separate entities with their own activities independent of the troop when National Council puts directly contrary language on the BSA Website, BSHB, and SMHB. or you may be giving sinister intent to mere bungling, of which humans are capable in full measure.

 

As I have taught the Patrol Method session of SMST, it is Patrol Leader who is to lead and represent his patrol. The SM or SA is to read the PLHB and SMHB where it is clear that the PL is to lead the patrol. The adult only acheives success if the Scout is leading and the adult is in the role of village elder, consulted as needed or when safety becomes the No. 1 concern.

 

And since White Stag, as a leadership training course for Scouts exphasized Bill Hillcourt's writings from before WWII on the Patrol Method and the Patrol, accurately quoting Phiilips, they had a strange way of getting Hillcourt's thinking out of the way.

 

I quoted your statements about your view of the objectives of training to a group of Scouters yesterday and asked them if they agreed that is what they were about as a training staff. They did not agree. We either are not, as you claim, reading this official "word" (that contradicts other official statements) or we are reading it very differently than you are.

 

Because you said that all Wood Badgers, especially Course Directors for some reason, are grossly incompetent for "see[ing] nothing wrong" with YOUR view of the SMST syllabus, that charge awaits proof that: 1) all Wood Badgers know of the supposed language, in context, and 2) all Wood Badgers "see nothing wrong" with patrols no longer having independent exitence if, in fact, that is the message of SMST.

 

Do patrols spend more time apart from the troop than with the troop, as Hillcourt seemed to desire? No. My patrol didn't in 1954 and does not today. I suppose folks have been accused of heresy in matters of degree before. But I think you are pining for something that never was.

 

As for adult presence, whatever you may desire the "Age of the Lawsuit" is putting pressure on more than just patrol independence. I suspect that BSA will end the ambiguity about adults on patrol outings (What is an "activity"?) by requiring adults unambiguously at all Scouting events. In my first life in Scouting, we stopped being called on the help with fighting brush fires. In 1987, public officials would not let us supply beverages to rescure workers ni the aftermath of a tornado due to fear they would be sued over injuries (ona paved schiil parking lot!). More adults around would only make it more critical to train the leaders that they are to lead and to keep the adults "on the reservation."

 

 

[Kudu]

Tahawk writes:

 

Because you said that all Wood Badgers, especially Course Directors for some reason, are grossly incompetent for "see[ing] nothing wrong" with YOUR view of the SMST syllabus, that charge awaits proof that: 1) all Wood Badgers know of the supposed language, in context...

 

I can see the weasel wheels turning at top speed already: You can prove ANYTHING through "context."

 

My three observations are specific to the Patrol Method Session of Scoutmaster & Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training:

 

1) The entire session does not include ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

 

2) It gives one example of the Patrol Method as the "adult leadership style" of telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

 

3) (Except for one instance where the term "Patrol" refers to a group of adults sitting around a table), it emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the term "Patrol" is the same as "Troop" or any other "group," with the formula "patrol/troop/group."

 

Wood Badge sucks because it changes the meaning of the term "Patrol Method" from Patrol-based Scoutcraft adventure to teaching Troop-based business manager theory:

 

"Of course we use the 'Patrol Method:' bypassing the Patrol Leaders is the 'adult leadership style' that best matches 'the needs of our patrol/troop/group'!"

 

Kudu

 

[TAHAWK]

"'Because you said that all Wood Badgers, especially Course Directors for some reason, are grossly incompetent for "see[ing] nothing wrong" with YOUR view of the SMST syllabus, that charge awaits proof that: 1) all Wood Badgers know of the supposed language, in context...

 

I can see the weasel wheels turning at top speed already: You can prove ANYTHING through 'context.'"

 

"weasel wheels": Good alliteration, Rick.

 

Rick, there are many "bad" words in the Bible. I feel its almost insulting to say it to an adult, but context is rather inportant, in the Bible and elsewhere.

 

If you believe that words taken out of context are meaningful, that is possibly because you are so determined to "prove" your point about more recent training.

 

The need to take words out of context becomes even more critical when BSA's website, the HBSM, and the BSHB all currently state that patrols have independent identity and activites, something you are trying to prove is contrary to BSA policy and practice.

 

If they just messed up in writing the SMST syllabus, that would only be another example of human frailty at National Council, not eeeviilll intent. I am well aware of imperfections in BSA publications, but I try not to see error as conspiracy. (I mean, they don't intend that carbon steel knives get rusted when, without qualification, they advise dish-wahing for a pocketknife. They just have limited knowledge and experience.)

 

And you have ignored the second of the proofs of your statement, and one that is totally unrelated to context: ". . . 2) all Wood Badgers "see nothing wrong" with patrols no longer having independent exitence if, in fact, that is the message of SMST." That is the inherent problem with of statements to the effect that, "All X are Y." Someone may ask you to prove that all persons in the category "X" have characteristic "Y." Absent proof, we have just another example of prejudice -- tarring an entire category of folks, relatively very few of whom of whom you have ever even met.

 

"Wood Badge sucks because it changes the meaning of the term "Patrol Method" from Patrol-based Scoutcraft adventure to teaching Troop-based business manager theory."

 

Rick, as to the point that you rasied, Wood Badge models, and thereby teaches, that the patrol is led by the elected patrol leader and has independent existence and independent activities, some in the outdoors, at which troop-level leaders are present by invitation only.

 

"The uniqueness of Scouting is the patrol method. The use of

the natural gang of six or eight boys who elect their own leader and plan and carry out many of their own activities is a democracy in microcosm. Here young men learn the give and take of working with people as they must surely do all their lives. Here, too, they are given leadership and learning opportunities which prepare them for their future roles as citizens. It is for this reason that it is so crucial that all adults understand thoroughly the patrol method."

 

Woodbadge.org

 

Are we as "outdoorsy" as BP hoped? No. Never where. You pine for something that never was -- that which inspires, as opposed to the reality. That's OK. I too wish there were more outdoor opportunities, expecially for patrols working independently.

 

But my dissatisfactions cannot justify in my mind unrelenting attacks on anyone who feels, on balance, that current Scouting is better supported than damned.

[Kudu]

The "context" of what appears elsewhere means nothing. People go to training because they can't be bothered with reading the Scoutmaster's Handbook. I would be surprised if more than 10% of all Wood Badge participants (let alone basic training participants) have actually sat down and read it cover to cover.

 

I said: "ALL Holders of the Wood Badge are grossly incompetent because they see absolutely nothing wrong with that [the Patrol Method Session is about "adult leadership styles" theory rather than the Patrol Method]. Course Directors are the worst in that regard."

 

In what John-In-KC characterizes as my "year and a half diatribe" about it, only one reader (Eamonn), acknowledged that he had even read my three points, but he indicated that he could not be bothered to sit down and read the session in order to confirm or deny them.

 

All Holders of the Wood Badge (especially Course Directors) are grossly incompetent because they could not care less that:

 

1) The entire Patrol Method Session of Scoutmaster & Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training does not include ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

 

2) It gives an example of the Patrol Method as the "adult leadership style" of telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

 

3) The Patrol Method Session emphasises at every mention of the word "patrol," that the term "patrol" is the same as "troop" or "group" by using the formula "patrol/troop/group."

 

"Of course we use the 'Patrol Method:' bypassing our Patrol Leaders is the 'adult leadership style' that best matches 'the needs' of our patrol/troop/group!"

 

Kudu

 

 

[TAHAWK]

Kudu posted:

 

"More recently the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster ASM Specific Training:

 

1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

 

2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

 

3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group."

 

ALL [sic] Holders of the Wood Badge are grossly incompetent because they see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Course Directors are the worst in that regard."

 

 

Today, I have reviewed Session One of current (2008 printing) Scoutmaster Specific Training syllabus and especially that portion of the syllabus for Session One beginning on p. 53 that covers the "Patrol Method."

 

Every one of your claims (quoted above) is incorrect as to the syllabus that I reviewed. The patrol leader is discussed by title and duties, the claimed "example" does not appear, and a "patrol" is not explained as being the same as group or troop. Instead, the patrol is distinguished from the troop.

 

That part of the sullabus for Session One specifically quotes the classic faux quote of BP about the Patrol Method (p. 54) and, on p. 55, specifically instructs the presented to "refer to" Chapter 3 of the SMHB, The Boy-Led Troop, in which it is stated that:

 

"One patrol leader (italics in original) is elected by the members of each patrol. He takes responsibility for the patrol's activities and represents the patrol in the Patrol Leader's Council."

 

That Chapter of the SMHB, in turn, refers the reader to Chapter 4 of the SMHB, The Boy-Led Patrol ("ee chapter 4, "The Boy-Led Patrol."

 

Moreover, the portion of Session One of the SMST syllabus to which you refer follows earlier pages of the syllabus for that VERY SAME SESSION that again refers the instructor to Chapter 4 of the SMHB, The Boy-Led Patrol. The direction on p. 32 of the syllabus is, "[T]urn to the discussion of patrols in The Scoutmaster Handbook, Chapter 4."

 

Thus, the syllabus incorporates as part of the teaching syllabus BY SPECIFIC REFERENCE the portions of the SMHB that teach that patrol leaders lead their patrols in "patrol meetings and activities" and represent the patrol to the troop.

 

In short, the Patrol Method is all over the Syllabus for Session One of SMST, and particularly included in the page 53 et seq.

 

This is hardly a shock given the consistent message in the PLHB, the SMHB, and the National Council website, all to the same effect.

 

These publications are available at any Scout Shop. The link to the National Council website language on the Patrol Leader is here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx