How has training changed and is it for the better?

[Scouterclaude]

In your opinion how has training changed over the last 25 years, and has it been for the better. When I started out 23 years ago as a WEBELOS den leader I went to all the training that was available. Fast Start was put on at a local church or school and after you watched a video you could ask questions. Basic Training was put on twice a year, once in the fall and once in the spring. It wasnt unusual for up to 100 volunteers to show up to be trained on a Saturday. The training lasted 6 to 7 hours with a lunch break in the middle. In the morning we were trained on general rules and policies of scouting, how the cub scout program is suppose to work and so on. In the afternoon we broke into sessions, Den Leaders (Wolf, Bear) Webelos den leaders, Cub Masters and committee. Pretty much like today but the attitude seemed to be different, or maybe it is just my perception. The biggest change I have seen is in supplemental training. When I started out as a WEBELOS leader we had WLOT (Webelos leader outdoor training), it was a weekend long training starting Friday evening going to Sunday morning. We were put into dens and camped as a den. On Friday night we were given materials to make a den flag, we came up with a den yell and cheer, and we had to select a den name. We had to work together as a group. There was staff available to help those who were having difficulties setting up their sites. On Saturday after breakfast we had an opening ceremony and announcements we then went to 3 different stations for training on different parts of the Webelos outdoor program(Geologist, Forester, Outdoorsman, and so on). For the lunch session we had to make a foil dinner with the help of the staff. During lunch we received training on outdoor ceremonies and campfires. After lunch we went to 3 more stations for additional training. After the afternoon sessions we went back to our campsites and prepared dinner and had a short rest period. In the evening we had a group sessions dealing with GTSS rules and regulations for Webelos followed by a campfire program including skits we had prepared during our break periods. Sunday morning we had breakfast followed by church services for those who wanted to attend, and then we came together as a group to receive awards for Best Den Best Cheer and so on along with a bolo which was made especially for WLOT. The training we have today in my council is a 1 overnight stay which also includes BALOO training. Baloo is a 7 to 8 hour program in itself leaving little time left for WEBELOS specific training let alone the group dynamics. Also incorporated into this training are Boy Scout Leaders learning about the Boy Scout outdoor program. We also had a program called TOPS (trained outdoor Program Specialist) which incorporated a lot of Baloo for other than WEBELOS leaders. For Boy Scout Leaders we had T99 Scoutmaster Fundamentals which was training for the Boy Scout program. T99 was 3 Troop meetings and a weekend campout. Wood Badge was a Boy Scouters program with Cub Wood Badge being added later. Today it seems to me we combine a lot of the training, mixing Boy Scouts with Cub Scouts, general ideas with very little specifics, limited (if any) fellowship or group dynamics. This might be just the way things are done in my council and you may have a different experience in yours. By the way my position for the last 2 years has been as a Pack Trainer and we do have 100% of our leaders trained. I try to get the new leaders to training in a group setting(District wide training) within the first month, but have done individual style training for those who couldnt make the group trainings. I would really like to hear everyones opinion on training so I can maybe incorporate your ideas into a training program in my unit. Thanks and sorry this post is so long.

[emb021]

"In your opinion how has training changed over the last 25 years, and has it been for the better."

 

There has been 2 major changes in training in the last 25 years:

 

* breaking up training back into units, including a unit for all leaders (they used to do this back in the 50s).

 

* more training being done on-line, which makes it easier for leaders to get some training done. While other then certain position, most can't complete basic training this way, it elimiates the excuses some have to not get trained.

 

Another change was to make WB the universal advanced training for all leaders, instead of just advanced leaders for certain leaders.

 

When I started out as a leader (a boy scout leader to be exact), we had Boy Scout Basic Training (aka 'six sessions'), which was a weekend course. Later, this was revamped as Scoutmastership Fundamentals.

 

We started getting video training: Fast Start and soon YPT. YPT was a pain to the extent that you had to retake it every so often (tho how often was never clear), and you had to have it done by qualified trainers.

 

Then the big change was to create New Leader Essentials for all leaders, then followed by position-specific training. And the weekend camping portion of Scoutmastership Fundamentals was turned into Intro to Outdoor Leader Training, which made it easier for non-Boy Scout leaders to take it, if they needed it.

 

 

[Kudu]

White Stag Wood Badge killed Patrol Leader Training in 1972: Sorry no more position-specific training for Patrol Leaders.

 

More recently the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster ASM Specific Training:

 

1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

 

2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

 

3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group."

 

ALL Holders of the Wood Badge are grossly incompetent because they see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Course Directors are the worst in that regard.

 

The National Council leadership approved adapting the White Stag leadership competencies for nationwide use. Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting.

 

Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected.

 

Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right."

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

[TAHAWK]

In my Counsel, District-level junior leader training was, of course, presented from my getting back into Scouting in 1982 until 2001. I was a Course Director. We used a a national syllabus. In 2001 (the thereabouts), the official "JLOW" syllabus was withdrawn until a new syllabus was to be issued. A new syllabus has been promised several times, but has not been forthcoming.

 

Some of us are not waiting. We continue to offer JLOW using the old syllabus to supplement training of junior leaders at the unit level. Typically, after several generally-applicable sessions, we break out into separate sessions for Patrol leadership, Troop leadership, and warrant positions (e.g. QM). The Patrol method and the proper role of adults vis-a-vis junior leaders is very much part of that training. In fact, we refer to adults as "Scouters." Only Scouts are called "leaders." Words have power.

 

Look at the old gent at the top of the page with his chin in his hand. Bill was proud to wear the Wood Badge and came to our Wood Badge Breakfast in 1992 to urge all present to extend Wood badge training to as many Scouters as possible because, he said, it "is" a "great and valuable experience." He dropped $10 in the hat for our Wood Badge Scholarship Fund and autographed books and T-shirts so we could sell them to raise more funds to send Scouters to Wood Badge in 1993 - twenty-one years after Kudi said it became worthless.

 

Then we have Kudu, who is not Bill. Kudu supports an alternative youth program and appears here to bash Scouting on the basis of imagined facts - and to denounce all of those who wear the Wood Badge.

 

I don't know if training today is better than when I was first trained and training in 1960. It is valuable, depending on the quality of the staff more than any other factor. Our IOLS weekend in May (All Scoutcraft All the Time) had an allstar staff, and the participants didn't want to leave on Sunday when it was officially over. We are probably going to have, with our local Council's approval already in hand, an "Advanced Outdoor Leader Skills" course. Such a course is offered in many Councils in Ohio.

 

The glass is at least half full.

[Kudu]

Tahawk's ad hominem reply proves my point. Now that I have embraced his "dark side" of Scouting, I no longer take the high road. I reply in kind:

 

If I remember correctly the Troop that Tahawk belonged to as a Scout did not use Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course. Likewise when he became an adult leader he did not follow the BSA program either. So of course he would not address the specific issue of White Stag's destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training, even though he is old enough to have experienced it directly.

 

On the issue of the current Scoutmaster-specific training course excluding the Patrol Leader from the Patrol Method session, Tahawk is the same as ALL Holders of the Wood Badge. He apparently does not see the significance of that, nor the significance of insisting that the words "Patrol" and "Troop" mean the same thing, nor the significance of giving as an example of the Patrol Method an adult leader telling random Scouts when it is time to put out a campfire.

 

The practice of dodging the issue and replying with a personal attack is INHERENT to White Stag Wood Badge. Tahawk's "bashing" accusation is exactly the same as the White Stag accusation that Bill Hillcourt's opposition to the destruction of the Scoutcraft-based Patrol Method was based on a "vested interest."

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[John-in-KC]

Rick,

 

And you, Sir, have not been doing ad hominem attacks against Mr Mazzuca, Mr Williams and other National staffers these past eighteen months or so?

 

I submit your responsory is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

When you post using your expertise, you're one tremendous resource. When you diatribe, which in the past year and a half has been about 85% of the time, you're at best a distractor, and at worst a breaker of the Scout Law (Cheeful, Friendly, Courteous).

 

Help all of us. Post with your expertise, not with diatribes.

[Scouterclaude]

Gentlemen, and ladies can we please keep this civil? The question I raised was asking for input on the state of training today and in the past, I feel both have positive and negative aspects. I really dont want this to turn into trashing other people or their ideas and opinions. Constructive criticism is appreciated though. Thank you.

[ghermanno]

When I returned to Scouting as an adult in 1979, I was unable to attend leadership training (was stationed overseas and a junior enlisted guy). When I returned to the states and became involved again (1981 - 1985) the traininjg was EXCELLENT. Was it due to the course material or the instructors, I could not tell you. Most instructors were WB's.

 

Today I am involved with training (I have attendd WB and Trainers EDGE) and can tell you the training materials I have seen locally (supposedly BSA approved) not only are sub-par for the subject but emphasize "Urban Legends" like sheath knives and hatchets that have allready been discussed. I actually read, in a BSA training packet (from another Council) the following: "BSA National has a no sheath knife rule. Sheath knives, although usefull for fishing and other outdoor activities, has no purpose or use in camping or the BSA program." I pointed out to the DE that this was BS, not BSA.

 

Training, IMHO, has declined in teaching SCOUTING but has improved on teaching managers. I have known a lot of mangers that could get lost following a single path in the woods. But they are GREAT mangers...

 

Just my $0.02 with opinion thown in.

 

YiS,

 

Rick

[John-in-KC]

Rick (as in ghermmano),

 

I think part of it is we've not decided the type of outdoor experience we want our youth to have. There's a huge part of our population which participates in the Whelen/Angier (On Your Own in the Wilderness) school of the outdoors: Heavy camping, with cars and trailers substituting for pack animals.

 

OTOH, there are folks in Scouting who insist on the Colin Fletcher (The Complete Walker) school of the outdoors: Exceptionally light camping and backpacking.

 

These two schools aren't necessarily incompatible, but we really need to come together and hammer out the outdoorsman skillsets needed for T-E. Are we doing the right things? Do we emphasize LNT? Do we need a certain amount of discretion to account for region-unique safety rules (remember when National Council published the special rules on fires about 4 years ago, when just about all of the US south of Nebraska was under a burn ban?)?

 

As a training manager, I grew up in the "Systems Approach to Training" development ... the military version of "Instructional Systems Development." The entire topology starts with a single concept: What do you want the learner to have learned, at wgat level of fusion, when he successfully completes the program?

 

When we can clearly talk to that, we can eat the rest of the elephant, one bite at a time.

 

YIS John

[BadenP]

I have taken both versions of WoodBadge and they were very different in their methodology and goals, while I enjoyed one much more than the other that had more to do with the quality of the instructors than anything else. Now with junior leader training I do see in my council an attempt to train them using a modified version of the current WoodBadge which I think is a big mistake because there is much less emphasis placed on outdoor skills than when I was a JLT instructor years ago. Like it or not in recent years there has been much less outdoor skill emphasis in these two programs which also seems to be the road our new CSE is following as well. While some councils are using other training programs to teach these "lost skills" mine is not one of them, as a result on camporees, etc. the lack of outdoor skills is sadly very apparent.

 

At a recent council camporee one event was lashing together a tower, only one troop was able to create a structure that could withstand any weight without collapsing. To me this is where Kudu makes a valid point about the rapidly declining outdoor program. Ok maybe your council does a better job, I know this our SE was embarrased by what he saw and at a leaders crackerbarrel that night said he wanted some rapid changes made to both adult and youth training in our council. Scouting has changed dramatically over the years, and whether these changes have been good or bad only time will tell.

[Kudu]

John-in-KC writes:

 

And you, Sir, have not been doing ad hominem attacks against Mr Mazzuca, Mr Williams and other National staffers these past eighteen months or so?

 

You do not understand the meaning of ad hominem. A good explanation can be found at:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

I mention Mr. Mazzuca by name when I discuss his ideas because he is conducting a national media blitz to change Scouting. Have I ever misquoted him?

 

John-in-KC writes:

 

When you post using your expertise, you're one tremendous resource. When you diatribe, which in the past year and a half has been about 85% of the time, you're at best a distractor, and at worst a breaker of the Scout Law (Cheeful, Friendly, Courteous).

 

I prefer "Trustworthy" to "Cheerful, Friendly, and Courteous," which, when used against Scouts and adults, are always subjective and project onto the other person the qualities of which the attacker is guilty.

 

Trustworthy deals with facts that can be verified. That is my reason for participating in public discussions.

 

Your attempt to pick a fight proves my point. Terms like "diatribe" project onto a logical argument your own emotional response. This form of personal attack is INHERENT to White Stag Wood Badge, which also used the accusation against Bill Hillcourt ("I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right").

 

John-in-KC writes:

 

Help all of us. Post with your expertise, not with diatribes.

 

I do, it is just that Holders of the Wood Badge react emotionally to 85% of my "expertise" because Wood Badge theory does not include what Hillcourt called "Real" Patrols (even though most Wood Badge Patrols are spaced correctly). If I discussed the "Patrol Method" in terms of indoor manager theory or just how cute and adorable those fuzzy "critter" toys can be, then all Holders of the Wood Badge would break into a weepy rendition of "Back to Gilwell" and remark at how Kudu never "distracts" from the discussion and has great "expertise" on the Patrol Method.

 

I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster-specific training because apparently I am the only Staffer in the United States who actually sat down and read it.

 

Scouterclaude writes:

 

The question I raised was asking for input on the state of training today and in the past

 

To understand the state of training today and in the past, you must concentrate on how the Patrol Method is presented. It is that simple. As the BSA's fake Baden-Powell quote says:

 

The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!

 

A. One example is the Patrol Leader handbook. Before White Stag it was a 370 page resource on how to take your Patrol on adventures without adults. If you read the current edition carefully it is mostly about boring things like manager flowcharts and how to sit in a meeting.

 

Since so much effort has been put into moving this discussion away from my original points I will repeat them here:

 

B. White Stag Wood Badge killed Patrol Leader Training in 1972. We no longer offer position-specific training for Patrol Leaders.

 

C. More recently the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster & ASM Specific Training:

 

1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

 

2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

 

3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group."

 

Kudu

 

[TAHAWK]

Rick (as in Kudu), you are doubtless a fine fellow in many ways. But crying "ad hominem" is not worthy of you. I merely said:

 

"Then we have Kudu, who is not Bill. Kudu supports an alternative youth program and appears here to bash Scouting on the basis of imagined facts - and to denounce all of those who wear the Wood Badge."

 

You are not Bill.

 

You support an alternative youth program, "Traditional Scouting" that YOU make a point of distinguishing form Scouting in the U.S. for generations. Fairly few Traditional Scouting units, though.

 

You appear here primarily to do what is fair to call "bash" Scouting as it is and has been for generations, not only in the U.S. but all over the world, I see.

 

You and I have dueled, fairly politely I thought, over what I see as your clear errors regarding what BP said about the aims and methods of Scouting.

 

And you bash everyone wearing the Wood Badge. In this thread, consider the overweaning breadth of your attack. All those thousands of Scouter and no redeaming feature that most of us here ascribe to your passionate self.

 

Beyond our disagreement about what Scouting is all about according to BP, what have I misstated, Rick?

[Kudu]

Tahawk writes:

 

But crying "ad hominem" is not worthy of you. I merely said ... You support an alternative youth program, "Traditional Scouting"...

 

That is the very definition of an ad hominem attack, Tahawk:

 

On the topic of "How has training changed and is it for the better?" I hold to be grossly incompetent any training that 1) excludes Patrol Leaders from the Patrol Method, 2) gives as an example of the "Patrol Method" an adult telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire (rather than working through a Patrol Leader), and 3) asserts that the term "Patrol" is the same as the term "Troop."

 

Neither you nor any Holder of the Wood Badge can reply to that, so you "bash" me with the accusation of having a vested interest (Traditional Scouting).

 

It is the same logic that White Stag Wood Badge used against Bill Hillcourt:

 

Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been [Traditional Scouting] and resisted every change.

 

Obviously ad hominem is the only possible response for Holders of the Wood Badge. None of them will yet admit that Scoutmaster-specific training now defines the term "Patrol Method" to mean "adult leadership styles," so they must either remain silent or move the conversation away from the Patrol Method and turn it into the personality of Kudu ("Rick").

 

As far as "Traditional Scouting" goes: Since the topic of "How has training changed and is it for the better?" does not specify BSA training, I should note that I hold "Traditional Scouting" training to be as incompetent as the BSA (which at least has the courage to publicly hold its Congressional Charter in contempt).

 

It has been a few years sice I last heard from the leader of the second wave of Traditional Scouting. He asked for my input on an exciting new idea, a "Traditional Scouting" course that would introduce [wait for it]

 

[wait for it]

 

[wait for it]

 

[wait for it]

 

a "Leadership Development" classroom course for schools.

 

Yes, Leadership Development, the indoor "Method of Scouting" that destroyed Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Method in the BSA.

 

Now, the third wave of Traditional Scouting comes in the form of a new organization that belongs to a new generation (its oldest kids are just beginning Cubs). Their training committee is composed of ex-BSA three and four bead Wood Badgers whose definition of "Traditional" leadership training is [wait for it]

 

[wait for it]

 

[wait for it]

 

[wait for it]

 

White Stag!

 

Yes, White Stag, the same thing that destroyed Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Method in the BSA.

 

So put me down as: "Not for the better."

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[SR540Beaver]

"I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method....."

 

When did they add "A Scout is Arrogant" to the law?

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

"I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method....."

 

When did they add "A Scout is Arrogant" to the law?

 

Yet another example of a Wood Badge personal attack designed to move the topic away from the content of Scoutmaster-specific training.

 

The full quote reads:

 

I do happen to be THE NATIONAL EXPERT on the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster-specific training because apparently I am the only Staffer in the United States who actually sat down and read it.

 

Kudu