Over-haul of Training

[OldGreyEagle]

Welcome to the Forum, hotair, I hope you learn from us and we from you.

 

This is regarding your statement:

 

"2) Patrol hikes without adult supervision? What are you people thinking? Two deep leadership is a requirement, along with youth protection training"

 

 

How do you explain this statement in the "Guide to Safe Scouting"?

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

 

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

 

Two-deep leadership:

 

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

Note the sentence; "There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

 

I take it you are from around the Chicago area, do you know where Wood Dale is?

[Eagle92]

Welcome aboard Hotair. In reference to scout sin metro areas, I would have to respectfully disagree. I grew up in a metro area, and almost every month we would travel 50+ miles to whatever campsite we were going to. so an hour or two drive was the norm. On occasion, usually when a 3 day weekend ensued, we did a 4+hour drive.

 

Being in the movement for 50 years, you know that at one time patrols were encouraged to go out on their own. I think that changed in the 1970s with "new Scouting" that flopped. Now there is a lot of discussion about patrol activities and no adult leadership, and at the moment patrols can do stuff with their unit leaders. BUT I know that alot of unit leaders will discourage that stuff. Unfortunately there are too many lawyers waiting for a payday. they sad thing is that you have many capable young men who could lead a group on a hike or campout, heck it wasn't to long ago that at 16 you could quit school, get a job, and support yourself or family.

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Any particular reason White Stag wasn't included before?

 

I started adding it after you pointed out that I did not make it clear that I include ALL of the post-Hillcourt WB courses when I talk about the problem of Wood Badge.

 

hotair36 writes:

 

Sounds a lot like the current management and EDGE focus of todays training. So I guess things haven't changed all that much they just have gotten more modern.

 

The point is that the inventors of "Leadership Development" were anti-Scoutcraft, and made it possible to collect an Eagle badge without ever attending a single campout.

 

When Holders of the Wood Badge use the word "modern" they usually mean that it is OK to ignore the Act of Congress which requires the BSA to to "train them in scoutcraft" using "the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916," in exchange for the BSA's lucrative "special rights" monopoly on Scouting.

 

Contrary to your claim, White Stag Wood Badge seemed to believe that the move from Scoutcraft to manager skills was a "paradigm shift":

 

Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting.

 

Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected.

 

Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right."

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

hotair36 writes:

 

Patrol hikes without adult supervision? What are you people thinking? Two deep leadership is a requirement, along with youth protection training.

 

That is why Wood Badge sucks, hotair36.

 

With 50+ years in the BSA one would think that someone might have mentioned to you that Patrol Hikes without adult supervision were THE GOAL of Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course (which White Stag Wood Badge destroyed), and that unsupervised Patrol Outings are still allowed by the Guide to Safe Scouting. When I took the course, Hillcourt's Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight were still part of Wood Badge. If Wood Badge had anything to do with real-world leadership, they would include some pointers on how Scouts can do that safely.

 

hotair36 writes:

 

Urban environments generally do not allow for a lot of the outdoor activities "away from the car" unless you get 50 or 100 miles out. Can't do that without a car.

 

Our "Redskins Patrol" (featured in an old issue of Scouter Magazine) used railroad right-of-ways to hike out of our urban environment on unsupervised Patrol Campouts.

 

hotair36 writes:

 

This sort of relates to one of the revised camping MB requirements where (I'm paraphrasing)...The outing in scouting is not dead; it is just a fact of our current society.

 

If you read them carefully, most of the activities listed in that Camping MB requirement have nothing to do with camping, like floating downstream in an inner-tube, riding your bike around for four hours, or rappelling at the mall. That reveals the anti-camping bias of the BSA and why "Gern Badge" would be doomed to a hostile takeover by office "modernists."

 

hotair36 writes:

 

I can't see a patrol campout when the local PD or conservation police or forest preserve district police enforce closing times and curfews...arrested for loitering in the park after 10:30 PM.

 

You really should burn your Wood Badge and get out more often, hotair36! The primitive areas of ALL National Forests (and the primitive areas of ALL of the State Parks in which I have ever camped) do NOT have curfews or ANY rules against Patrols of unaccompanied minors, as long as they camp at least 300 feet from the nearest road, parking lot, or improved campground.

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Thank you for answering, now I understand

[AlFansome]

Never mind...reread the original post...(This message has been edited by AlFansome)

[hotair36]

I guess I don't know where any state parks (some of which were closed by our former, now indicted governor) are that have "primitive areas". Same with National Parks (arent any around this area except for a few National Historic Sites that have regular business hours). Yes, some state and county parks, national forests etc are around but, they require permits in advance unless you are camping as a group or are in the family or general public area where admission is on a per diem basis.

They do lock the gates, I know since recently our district held its spring camporee at a county park. Some family members and district staff were locked in following the evening campfire and OA call out ceremony. Try to find a ranger or Sheriffs deputy at 10:00 PM after the park closed at 8:00 PM (sunset) to let the people out was not an easy task. Lets not even go down the road of what the thought pattern was when we realized that not only could people not get out but, an ambulance, if needed, could not get in. The problem got resolved but I think it illustrates the difficulties involved in trying to let a patrol do an over night on its own when not on a scout property or in conjunction with a scouting event.

As to the reference in a Guide to Safe Scouting - Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

1. Two-deep leadership:

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting also states in paragraph 2 under TOUR PERMITS: Tour permits have become recognized by national parks, military institutions, and other organizations as proof that a unit activity has been well planned and organized and is under capable and qualified leadership. These organizations may require the tour permit for entry.

 

I dont think that any council is going to issue a tour permit for a Boy Scout outing (note I did not reference Most short in town DEN trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit). Given the choice, I think I will opt for the tour permit thus giving legitimacy to the activity along with the related liability and insurance coverage that comes from my local council. If you dont follow the rules (i.e. Tour Permit) you can and most likely will be on your own for coverage. If a scout is injured and the BSA accident insurance is needed it is a lot easier if the activity had the requisite paper work (approved Tour Permit) on file.

 

Yes I am from a major metropolitan area in the Midwest.

 

[shortridge]

hotair36 wrote:

 

This sort of relates to one of the revised camping MB requirements where (I'm paraphrasing) "...on one of these outings hike and gain a minimum of 1000 ft in vertical altitude..." When you are in the Midwest and the elevation runs around 620 ft MSL for miles and miles does it count if the outing includes a trip into the city and the scouts climb up the stairs of the Willis (formerly Sears) tower.

 

To clarify, that requirement is one of six "choose-your-own" items. A Scout must choose two. So Scouts in flatland areas (like in the Midwest, and where I live on the East Coast) aren't prohibited from earning Camping MB. (And no, the Willis tower would not count - the elevation gain has to be while on a mountain.)

 

I am extremely confused by your comments regarding challenges to independent patrol activities.

 

In a quick search of the Illinois DNR's Web site, I found multiple state parks with tent camping areas, with no indication that there are curfews or lockdowns after certain hours. (Do a Google search for this string - site:dnr.state.il.us primitive - to find plenty.)

 

The "lock-in" at the spring camporee that you cited sounds more like it was due to poor planning and lack of communication with the county park staff than anything else (someone made the reservations, talked with the park staff, and didn't realize the park closed at night?). Simply because a group of adults can't get their stuff together doesn't mean a patrol should be barred from camping.

 

You also wrote: "I can't see a patrol campout when the local PD or conservation police or forest preserve district police enforce closing times and curfews."

 

If the patrol does its planning, reserves a campsite and checks in upon arrival - just like a troop would - no one should be kicked out. If the patrol just shows up at a park or preserve that doesn't allow camping or public access after a certain hour, yeah, they're going to get the boot, as they should. So I'm not at all sure I see your point.

 

If it's a community curfew you speak of, where kids under a certain age aren't allowed out after a certain hour, that sounds like a great opportunity for your Scouts to get involved in some practical citizenship by lobbying to have it changed to allow them to camp.

 

The only practical barriers to an independent patrol campout or hike are those imposed by a unit or a council. Best advice is to consult your DE or council camping professionals about the tour permit requirements if you're concerned about insurance and liability.

[Kudu]

hotair36,

 

That is why taking Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge destroyed the Patrol Method. If we are not familiar with the term "primitive area," then of course we will always think of the Patrol Method in terms of the Webelos III camping that can be done in family camping venues.

 

If a "park" has a gate then it is NOT a primitive area!

 

In the High-Peaks area of the Adirondack Mountains, a minimum distance of a couple miles between Patrols is required by law.

 

As far as tour permits and insurance goes, my experience has always been that the most independent Patrols (those that camp without adult supervision) get their skills from Boy Scouting, but include non-BSA members.

 

That was how we did it back in the 1960s, and that is my experience today. In the suburbs there are sometimes camping spots to which such a Patrol can hike. More commonly a Patrol will do as we did as a teenager, just get into our cars and drive to the primitive areas. You don't need your Scoutmaster's permission or a tour permit to camp in Patrols that include non-BSA members.

 

As for BSA Patrols, my experience is limited to Patrols that backpack without adult supervision while the adults remain at a basecamp with the less-experienced or less-trusted Patrols.

 

The best solution for Troops without primitive camping experience is to follow Baden-Powell's minimum 300 foot distance between Patrols. Start at 30 feet and work up to 300 based on the actual competency of each Patrol.

 

This can be done in most BSA Council camps, and in the primitive areas of all National Forests. By the way, the rule in most National Forests is 300 feet from the nearest improved area, so if you use a rented campsite as an adult basecamp, Baden-Powell's 300 feet works out perfectly.

 

The "300 foot" (more or less) rule is still used by many Wood Badge courses. It is the reason that participants feel that they have experienced the Patrol Method for perhaps the first time in their lives, but they do not take the experience back to their home Troops because the distance is not pointed out (it does not fit into business management theory).

 

"Gern Badge" would have exactly the same problem if the participants were not forced to concentrate on the actual Scoutcraft leadership techniques being used to move the Patrols every day.

 

Kudu

 

[Spiney Norman]

Shortridge,

 

you said: "In a quick search of the Illinois DNR's Web site, I found multiple state parks with tent camping areas, with no indication that there are curfews or lockdowns after certain hours. (Do a Google search for this string - site:dnr.state.il.us primitive - to find plenty.)"

 

While this is true, most primitive areas within the state parks here in the Prarie State are behind the gates of the state park. They do impose a quiet time curfew as well.

 

as for this:

 

"If the patrol does its planning, reserves a campsite and checks in upon arrival - just like a troop would - no one should be kicked out. If the patrol just shows up at a park or preserve that doesn't allow camping or public access after a certain hour, yeah, they're going to get the boot, as they should. So I'm not at all sure I see your point"

 

If you look deeper in the website you wouldfind thatthe state imposes a minimum level of adult accompanaiment/supervision for all youth groups.

 

I don't mean to argue with you but, around here at least, unless the patrol camps on private property I don't see how they could accomplish this. I do not however disagree with you about unsupervised patrol activities, as a matter of fact I am ALL FOR IT!

 

 

 

[shortridge]

Spiney Norman,

 

Thanks for the insight. Two things, though...

 

"While this is true, most primitive areas within the state parks here in the Prarie State are behind the gates of the state park. They do impose a quiet time curfew as well."

 

These still aren't things that prohibit a Patrol from camping, any more than they prevent a troop from camping. If a park allows camping, it has to have a way to get an ambulance or emergency vehicles past the gates after-hours - that's just common sense. A troop would have the same problem as a patrol. And a "quiet time curfew" shouldn't affect anyone. A patrol should follow the park regulations just like a troop would.

 

The issue of required adult supervision is indeed an obstacle, and an unfortunate one, IMHO. I would wager, though, that if your unit has a good relationship with local land managers, and they were convinced of the patrol's maturity and skills, that they'd wink at this.

 

Private land isn't the only other option, either - your local scout reservation would be a perfect place. The troop could attend as a group, if needed for the local council's OK, and then the patrols could split up and do their own thing until Sunday morning.

[prairie]

So, is GernBadge stillborn, or am I not in the loop?

If my staying away makes it happen thats fine too.

[GernBlansten]

Until BSA returns to an outdoor centric, adventure rooted program, GernBadge is nothing more than wishful thinking.

[prairie]

Thats the saddist thing I've read in months.

[BadenP]

Gern

 

I agree with your post but I think if we wait for National to turn us back to our outdoor roots we are going to have a very long wait. The tools and guidelines are already in place and its up to the individual troops to create the program. Using some of the older BSA pubs on Pioneering, camping, backpacking and incorporating them with current pubs like the BSA Fieldbook is a good start. Training courses offered by some backpacking companies also offer some great experiences and insights. What it comes down to is once again we on the local level have to make it happen cuz it is fairly obvious National never will.

[prairie]

I've been trying to think through what all would be involved if GB was

run even once as an off reservation pilot project.

Would uniforms and Scout camps would be out, would national be

upset over use of pre-1972 books and training materials?

 

Might be better to host a "old traditinal week long camporee",

kinda a Scout reinactment project like the Buckskinners or the SCA does,

it's not like we expect national to give us credit for this training.