Over-haul of Training

[Eagle92]

I don't, always agree with Kudu, and this is one time that I think he only has part of the answer. He states that Leadership = Applied Scoutcraft + Charisma. I think something is missing. I think for scouting the equationshould be the following:

Leadership= Applied Scoutcraft + Ability to teach/mentor + basic management skills (i.e. planning and executing events and activities, time management, etc) + Charisma. Let's face it, you can have all the scoutcraft knowledge in the world, but if you don't have the ability to communicate it so that someone can understand, it won't happen. Ditto the SPL you cannot plan and execute an event properly, or is always doign things last minute. Leadership tend to be a many legged stool, and if somethign is missing, the stool will wobble or worse, fall over.

 

In reference to the entire thread, i think we are all onto something in that BSA needs to get the focus back on putting the outing into scouting. We need more adults who are comfortable in their outdoor skills AND have the ability ot pass alonmg these skills to the youth. IOLS is just that and intro. We need something more.

 

I will also add that BSA neds a challenge system so that someone who does have the scoutcraft skills can test out of IOLS. Perfectly good example is my freind who's an eagle, did the old BA22 course and staffed it, is prior military, but hasn't gone through IOLS b/c his primary posiitons of CM and now crew Adviser doesn't require it, but the secondary ASM position does. Kidna funnyy seeing someone with the WB beads, woggle, and necker without a trained patch on their scout uniform b/c he hasn't done IOLS, yet is the Camping, Backpacking, Hiking, Canoeing, and Wilderness Survival MB counselor.

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

Kudu, give it a rest. Leadership and skills can indeed be taught as separate courses that compliment each other.

 

Only if you dumb the Patrol Method down to its current Webelos III level.

 

SR540Beaver writes:

 

It is foolish to hang the end all and be all of the patrol method on the actual number of feet separating patrols on a campout.

 

Before White Stag Wood Badge destroyed Bill Hillcourt's life work by pretending that Scout leadership could be separated from Scoutcraft, the definition of a "Real Patrol" was very simple: A Patrol that hikes without adult supervision with the goal of camping without adult supervision.

 

Hike = Distance

 

SR540Beaver writes:

 

Your hatred of the current BSA program and WB are legendary here, but getting quite old. You don't have to repeat it in every post as we are all fully aware of your feelings.

 

Since the day that White Stag prepared to hijack Wood Badge, these people have ALL used SR540Beaver's Wood Badge Logic: Personal attacks to shift the discussion from real-world competency to ridicule. Bill Hillcourt was the first victim, and I will not be the last:

 

Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected.

 

Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right."

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

Kudu

 

[prairie]

SR540Beaver wrote:

"Kudu, give it a rest. Leadership and skills can indeed be taught as separate courses that compliment each other."

 

SR540Beaver, but should they? I think your missing the point of this thread, this is supposed to be a one week emersion in Scoutcraft/fieldcraft, disecting the coursework into a bunch of facets just makes for a lot of classroom time talking things to death. The leadership should be entwined with all the rest.

[GernBlansten]

I had no intention to denigrate or downplay the significance of WB. GB (GernBadge) is purely just another training option (path). There are many paths to our objective. WB is one path to leadership development. GB is just another. The ends to the means is the same. The means are just different.

 

But BSA has a problem today. Its lost its "cool" appeal to the youth. Membership is down, kids don't like to self identify as scouts. That's because most youth view it as a bunch of nerds sitting in a basement of the church, getting lectured on what makes good leaders. 50 years ago, being a scout didn't mean that, it meant going into the wild and learning and demonstrating your leadership by actually practicing scout-craft. When they took scout-craft out of WB, the BSA sealed their fate and chose their path.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gee, Gern, I risk being labeled as showing my age again, but I didn't know Scouting was ever cool. 50 years ago I was a cub scout and learning to be square while Maynard K Krebs fought humorously against the squares in society. We were in the Church Basement hanging out with our parents. Then in Boy Scouts we were in the Church basement learning to be be prepared. I don't remember anyone ever saying anything about Leadership, I earned Eagle in 1969 so that was before the 1972 changes (hey GWD, your son is upset his Eagle card has GW's name in it? Mine has Nixon's)so perhaps that's the reason.

 

Boy Scouts were not cool then either, but as it was 1968ish, perhaps being in the Chicago suburbs with the tears gas from Grant Park wafting our way colorerd my peers perception of the uniform

[GernBlansten]

OGE, that was forty years ago. I'm talking back when Norman Rockwell was still painting pictures of scouts. Its the time when all the stereotypes of scouting was laid out. Self reliant, outdoorsy, honest, helping little old ladies across the street. Back then it was cool, or so my dear old dad said. We haven't lived up to the Norman Rockwell portrayals.

[Kudu]

Eagle92 writes:

 

I think for scouting the equationshould be the following: Leadership= Applied Scoutcraft + Ability to teach/mentor + basic management skills (i.e. planning and executing events and activities, time management, etc) + Charisma.

 

Time management, Eagle92? Time management?

 

Danger, Will Robinson, DANGER!

 

No, as soon as you break down what makes a good leader into separate management skills, you are inviting "model theory" into the tent. Model theory is what destroyed Wood Badge.

 

The basic idea is that "leadership" is comprised of predictable traits and practices, and if we abstract these "skills" into "key concepts" we can teach them abstractly through "Team Building Exercises." Then any secretary or Boy Scout can learn how to be a "leader."

 

As soon as anybody talks about "Team Building Exercises" Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" is dead.

 

Real Leadership in Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Bill Hillcourt's "Patrol Method" is based on the simple fact that natural leaders learn how to "plan" by just sitting down and planning for a real event.

 

It is not rocket science to natural leaders.

 

The problem is the invention of Leadership Development, which shifted Scouting AWAY from Scoutcraft so that we could teach EVERY BOY how to be a leader.

 

Before White Stag Wood Badge destroyed position-specific training for Patrol Leaders, the six month course included "planning" a Real Patrol Hike and then "planning" a Real Patrol Campout.

 

By "Real" I mean they actually went on that Patrol Hike and they actually went that Patrol Campout.

 

By "planning" I mean "Just sit down and do it." That is the meaning of "Applied Scoutcraft," just sit down and plan for a REAL event, then use your Scoutcraft skills to GO on a Real adventure (not a Team Building Exercise).

 

How to Plan a Real Patrol Hike:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/3rd.htm

 

How to Plan a Real Patrol Campout:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/6th.htm

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

Let's face it, you can have all the scoutcraft knowledge in the world, but if you don't have the ability to communicate it so that someone can understand, it won't happen.

 

Charisma.

 

That is my entire point, it does NOT happen now. How many Boy Scout Patrols still conduct Patrol Campouts without adult supervision? Or, failing that, at least camp Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart?

 

Maybe 1/10 of 1%?

 

The reason is "Leadership Development."

 

Leadership Development is based on the idea that you can teach "Ability to teach/mentor" (EDGE) separately from Scoutcraft, and then the Patrol Leader will use these abstract office manager skills to go hiking and camping.

 

But it seldom happens, does it?

 

When you teach abstract skills you end up with a Webelos III program where the Patrols all camp close together.

 

The proof of that is that 99.9% of all BSA Scout Troops now camp close together like Webelos Scouts

 

As soon as "Gern Badge" teaches "planning and executing events" and "time management" (as opposed to "just sit down and do it"), Holders of the Wood Badge will make up "Team Building Exercises" to teach the "key concepts" and bring his course indoors for PowerPoint, while a BSA millionaire brags about GernBlansten: "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right."

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

I will also add that BSA needs a challenge system so that someone who does have the scoutcraft skills can test out of IOLS.

 

That is like saying that BSA Lifeguards need a challenge system so that if they know how to swim they can test out of the parts of BSA Lifeguard Training that involve swimming.

 

No, that is how White Stag hijacked Wood Badge: The idea that Scoutcraft skills (which do include swimming) belong in the Advancement box.

 

Any Scoutcraft course for adults that is not first and foremost a course on how to lead is part of the problem (IOLS), not a part of the solution.

 

There is no Boy Scout Leadership except as it expressed through Applied Scoutcraft.

 

Kudu

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Is there any reason to denigrate secretaries?

[John-in-KC]

I had a post to respond to Rick, but I dumped it. He won't listen.

[prairie]

This reminds me of how people read a book, most read it for the joy of a good story

but a few want to disect it as Literature, hunting for hidden meanings and motives.

Any guess who really gets the authors point of the book?

 

Some sugested names:

Adult Scoutcraft Trek

Adult Fieldcraft Trail

ScoutCraft Journey

 

Nudder thought, how young can a trainie be? I'dd like to see Scouts who plan to be a

ASM to get this training BEFORE they turn 18 so they can hit the ground running.

Open to Venturing youth too? GSUSA and Campfire leaders?

 

Nudder thought: avoid the obsession with patrol symbols, something as simple as Grey

Patrol or Green Patrol should work fine and plain neckers could be used if needed,

if there is only one patrol why bother.

 

Seems avoiding as much as reasonable what defines WoodBadge would be good.

I don't think anybody wants GernBadge to replace WoodBadge, the focus is very

diffrent and WB is so entrenched now nothing short of directives from on high will

change it. As long as the bead wearers don't feel threatened BG has a chance.

 

Spose this will ever get far enough along for a field test?

 

[asm 411]

Hey Kudu, thank you.

 

I learned a lot at Wood Badge and would not trade that experience for anything. Many of the things I learned at Wood Badge I have applied both to Scouting, my home and work life.

 

To be honest though I have learned more about being a good Scouter from Green Bar Bill through what he wrote in Scout and Scoutmaster Handbooks than anything I learned at Wood Badge.

 

I just returned from a High Adventure Canoeing trip at Tinnerman Canoe Base about 3 weeks ago. The Crew learned more about leadership and teamwork than I could have ever taught them in any other setting. Five Scouts figuring stuff out for themselves in the wilderness day in and day out for a week while moving to a new campsite everyday. As for me I sat back and watched the Scouts mature mentally and physically, learn to be good team players and good leadership skills along the way. I had two very short conversations with the Crew Leader all week. One about a safety issue and one about how he could be more efficient if he chose to. For the record he handled the safety issue and chose not to be more efficient.

 

There is another thread currently running that asks about "team building" games. I have kept myself from responding with "Try this - Have all those you want to build as team members divide into groups of 5 to 8. Have each group select one team member for the special opportunity to learn additionally leaderhsip skills while leading the group. If there are more than two teams then have them select a very special member from the group to organize all the teams as whole. He will work exclusively with the special member of each team and will have the opportunity to get direct guidance from a trained and experienced adult when necessary if at all. Have each group plan and execute 2 hikes and 10 campouts, one event a month, over the next year. This team building games final event will be a week long camping experience which they will need to plan. Make sure each of these events include properly balanced meals and who will do the choirs for the event."

 

Seriously, Wood Badge is a worthwhile training for all Scouters. Continuous education by reading what Green Bar Bill had to say is worth a lot more. Bringing Scouts out in the woods and letting them figure it out on their own is essential to grow a teams and leadership skills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

I can't think of a better word than "Time management" for the detailed timeline type planning i.e. x days out organize PLC, Y days out get instructors, z days out check on PL to see they are a go etc that is needed to organize campout and esp. high adventure activities. I understand where you are comign from and agree to a degree, some folks do take the time management to the Nth degree, and that takes the fun out of scouting. Will basic planning and execution be a better term?

 

As for communication v. charisma, yeah they do go hand in hand, but in the manner I am referring to is the ability to teach someone basic scoutcraft skills. The example that comes to my mind is a friend of mine who had incredible knowledge of scoutcraft, but for whatever reason could not teach the skills in an effecient manner to make sure the younger scouts could do it. Good guy, well liked, and could run a troop. but could not for the life of him teach the younger scouts.

 

As for challenge test options, actually BSA lifeguards can get recertified with a "challenge test." They have to take a written test, and then perform the skills test in the water. By "challenge test" for IOLS, I mean conducting a skills test at an established event, say a camporee or at summer camp, where an experienced leader can demonstrate the t-1 skills that comprise IOLS. Sicne a written test is not involved in IOLS, like there is for BSA Lifeguard, then they must do a skills check off. off the top of my head, they would have to show Totin Chip skills, pitch a tent, do orienteering course, etc. Again no written test, but a SKILLS test.

 

HEY wait aminute, I just got a crazy idea to encourage adults keeping their skills sharp, Old Man Games, or Are You Smarter Than a First Class Scout games that would test and keep sharp scoutcraft skills?

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Is there any reason to denigrate secretaries?

 

Perhaps you should take up their cause, OGE! I have drafted a letter on your behalf to Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca:

 

Dear Bob,

 

How quickly time passes when you are having FUN!

 

Has it really been 44 years since Wood Badge destroyed the life work of its very first US Course Director, Bill Hillcourt, and told him to just "settle down, everything was going to be all right"? It seems like only yesterday!

 

Well, some people just don't get it, do they? They don't understand leadership!

 

The proof that Bill Hillcourt was WRONG about the Patrol Method is that CEOs really LOVE Wood Badge! As you say, "We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques. "

 

So I had an idea. You know how we could really impress your CEO buddies? Do for the BSA's secretaries what state-of-the-art techniques did for Patrol Leaders! Here's my idea: Hold elections every six months so that the secretaries can vote for who gets to hold the head BSA millionaire Position Of Responsibility!

 

I'm sure that YOU would win, but if you don't its OK, because the one thing that Wood Badge teaches us is how to be a leader!

 

Great idea, huh?

 

Yours in Scouting,

 

OldGreyEagle

[OldGreyEagle]

Oops, my mistake, when you said "Any Secretary" I didnt know you meant just BSA Secretaries at National.

 

Just a question. I understand from your posts that Wood Badge was hijacked in 1972. You have spent most of your time here talking about that. But it's only been relatively recently that you have begun to include White Stag as another factor in the demise of the BSA as well. Any particular reason White Stag wasn't included before?

[hotair36]

OK my comments as a new guy to the forums but with 50+ years in the BSA.

1) Wood Badge in the 1960's was by invitation and targeted to trainers. Yes it had an emphasis on outdoor/scout craft skills but the focus was also on HOW TO TEACH those skills to other leaders and scouts. Sounds a lot like the current management and EDGE focus of todays training. So I guess things haven't changed all that much they just have gotten more modern.

2) Patrol hikes without adult supervision? What are you people thinking? Two deep leadership is a requirement, along with youth protection training.

3) Urban environments generally do not allow for a lot of the outdoor activities "away from the car" unless you get 50 or 100 miles out. Can't do that without a car.

4) This sort of relates to one of the revised camping MB requirements where (I'm paraphrasing) "...on one of these outings hike and gain a minimum of 1000 ft in vertical altitude..." When you are in the Midwest and the elevation runs around 620 ft MSL for miles and miles does it count if the outing includes a trip into the city and the scouts climb up the stairs of the Willis (formerly Sears) tower.

The outing in scouting is not dead; it is just a fact of our current society. What is available for many scouts and leaders outside of metropolitan areas is not always available to those in population centers. This is a particularly vexing issue when councils are disposing of camping properties and public parks close at sunset. I can't see a patrol campout when the local PD or conservation police or forest preserve district police enforce closing times and curfews.

I can just see it: "Hello Mr. Jones, this is Scoutmaster Smith calling to ask you to go the XYZ police department to pick up you son who was arrested for loitering in the park after 10:30 PM. Yes, I have to call each parent and ask them to do the same. If you could, would you please ask you wife, the attorney, to meet us at the Police Department to serve as legal counsel since the DCFS (Department of Children and Family Services) will be conducting an investigation of all of us for child endangerment for allowing the scouts to roam free.

Perhaps the training revisions need to include more crisis management skills.