Training or f

[Beavah]

In my council, the only skills course (besides instructor training) for BSA Scouters is ITOLS. One weekend, jamb packed with basic skills. But not nearly enough to take 10 youth into the wilderness for a week. Especially if you never backpacked before. We are fortunate enough to have a couple of adults in our unit who are active outdoorsman. Just think if you had a unit with none? Does BSA provide training for those leaders? In management, not outdoorsmanship.

 

Yah, I have to agree with Gern, eh?

 

One of da things that I think is costing us kids is that we have fewer adults who are able to deliver on the outdoor adventure kids want these days. Da car campin' and sing-along fires are nice and all for webelos and younger middle schoolers, but the older boys lust for bigger mountains. Our cadre of well-rounded scouters and parents aren't up to deliverin' that.

 

More to da point, IOLS isn't goin' to get 'em there. I think in order to responsibly lead children in the field, yeh need a good solid level of comfort and expertise yourself. That takes more than a weekend to develop from scratch. Lots more.

 

So either we find those people who have a lot of prior experience who really don't need our current training (and make 'em take it anyways just to be ornery ), or we have to find ways of offerin' adults some really solid outdoor leadership trainin' and experience.

 

Perhaps da way to go is use alternate providers, eh? We're already doin' that for things like Wilderness First Aid. Maybe we try to find things like REI Adventures programs to work with.

 

Anyone got any suggestions of partners who would work?

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

There is such a BSA-sponsored program already - outdoor skills director certification at National Camping School. It's a week-long program that teaches the basics-plus. Granted, it doesn't involve long-term backpacking, but it'll get you to the point where you can jump off yourself.

 

But that program, unfortunately, is generally restricted to camp staff members. And the vast majority of volunteer Scouters can't take a summer off to work on staff just to get the training card.

 

Why not open up NCS to everyone who's willing to pay the fare and can get off work for a week? Units would have a much more solid base of trained leaders, in everything from shooting sports to aquatics, and councils would have a great pool of people to draw from for year-round programming (want to offer a weekend climbing clinic? call your local COPE director!) or to fill in as needed during the summer season.

 

Aside from NCS, you're left with some very pricey private companies, and a scattershot approach because they're limited by geography. REI doesn't have stores everywhere, and NOLS isn't in my neck of the woods, either. By contrast, there are at least a couple of NCS sites in each region.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Lisabob]

"Why not open up NCS to everyone who's willing to pay the fare and can get off work for a week?"

 

I think this could be a very good idea, but I don't think it truly addresses the root problem. People like me are probably a good example.

 

I spent a lot of time outdoors and camping as a youth, but (for obvious reasons) I was not a boy scout. Most of my camping experience was cabin camping and dining hall meals. Even though I literally lived at the camp where I worked for 10-16 weeks every year, it wasn't the same experience as boy scouts.

 

I love hiking. I love being outdoors. I enjoy working with scouts, especially the 10-12 year olds and those nearing the end of the program (I admit I'm not as good with early teens!) But frankly, I don't have the right skills to be a good ASM. A weekend at OLS won't change that. Neither would a week at NCS. I wouldn't even consider spending a week at NCS, even though I often have fairly unstructured summers (not work-free, but I can set my own schedule). It would be extremely difficult to justify the expense to my family, since it wouldn't be enough to make me a competent ASM anyway.

 

All these outdoor skills take repetition to master. Not one-shot training. What I really think we need, as a society, is a way to encourage more adults to spend more time outside. It isn't via the Boy Scouts that most folks will learn these skills, these days. Most of the hiking I've done has been through a separate club open to anyone who likes hiking. People I know who are expert in Wilderness Survival, or in Climbing, or in Backpacking, or in Canoeing or Kayaking, etc. mostly developed those skills somewhere else too. Colleges are increasingly offering outdoor recreation classes either as Continuing Education (drawing in the local community at relatively low cost) or as part of their Health & Wellness requirements.

 

We need a way to push adults out the door to join these sorts of activities. Then they will develop a level of expertise and comfort that they can also bring to Boy Scouting (Or Venturing, or Sea Scouting). It ain't gonna happen from the BSA level up.

 

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

A dedicated SM and dads can get up to speed, if they really want to. The adults can go on trips with other nearby Troops that have experienced leaders and learn the skills. Or they can invite an experienced leader to come teach the skill at Troop meetings and then go on the trip with the Troop.

 

We have a group of experienced cavers in our council who lead Troops on caving trips in Georgia, Alabama and TN. They don't charge anything, and they have trips planned nearly every weekend. They do it because they love caving.

 

If we want to go rock climbing, we hire trained personnel to lead the skills part of the trip. There are plenty of folks around who are very reasonable.

 

There are plenty of local rafting companies that offer whitewater trips on the local rivers, again, very reasonable. I don't think a SM has to be able to guide on the river for the Troop to participate in the event. He just needs to make sure qualified personnel are performing the job.

 

There is also tons of info on the web, along with very good videos. It's all there for those willing to look.

 

Maybe I'm missing the point. Maybe a list of skills a SM should have would help. Backpacking, canoeing - what else?

[Lisabob]

Of course, if we had such a list, we'd probably scare away a lot of folks too!

 

I'm not arguing that the SM needs to know it all. But let's be honest. A very thin level of training (like a weekend course) isn't enough to be able to master any outdoor skills to a level where a person can identify - in advance - what the potential risks might be, and evaluate the possible severity of those risks. Inexperienced leaders are prone to making poor decisions when it counts because they don't understand how (or how quickly) things can go wrong. In short, they don't know what they don't know.

 

All the book learning in the world won't remedy that, although it may be helpful. One weekend course, or even one week-long course, won't remedy it either. I shudder at the notion that just because someone survived a weekend of OLS (by itself), that they are necessarily qualified to lead an entire troop of boy scouts on an outing. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[Stosh]

Even SM's with extensive training and experiences doesn't mean they should be doing it all even if they already know it all. That is a formula for burnout for the SM and no leadership training for the boys. What is needed is leadership training, not management skills training, and unfortunately I see management skills training being used as leadership training and in the short term it gets one by, but it doesn't do anything for the long run.

 

Stosh

[GernBlansten]

It takes several backpacking trips to become good at it. Knowing what to bring, how to use it, how to deal with various situations and weather. Its not something you can learn in a weekend course. Same goes with skiing, canoeing, climbing, caving and sailing. However, a little training goes a long way. Just knowing that you don't know everything is a lot better than being ignorant of the challenges altogether. To take a modern suburbanite out of their manicured fenced backyards and throw him into the wilderness with a bunch of hyperactive 11 year olds is just a recipe for disaster. We need to provide basic outdoors training for these leaders. It should have as much or more emphasis as WB or any other management course BSA offers.

 

ITOLS is excellent. It gives the new SM a quick run through on T21 skills. The next step should be a weekend backpack trip, where the new SM is taken into the woods with experienced backpackers. There they can learn the basic skills to confidently take the youth into the woods. Then offer a weekend canoe course if your area supports canoeing. Or caving. Or climbing. These weekends should be skill specific. Don't water them down trying to jamb too many skills. Just master the basic ones. Practice them in the field.

 

Emphasize the adventure in scouting, train our adults to support it.

[Lisabob]

As the boys were getting ready to leave for a weekend camping trip last night, one parent said to me "I wish we had scouting for adults!"

 

Some of you have read about how the Venture Patrol in my son's troop has become very adult-laden. I think one of the major reasons why, is that there are a number of adults who WANT to learn this stuff, who did not learn it as a youth. They know the adult who is actually putting together these backpacking trips really knows what he is doing, so they desire to tag along and learn from him.

 

While I salute their enthusiasm, I wish they'd have their own program instead of encroaching upon the youth program. Based on what I've seen though, the type of thing Gern is suggesting could be extremely popular among adult leaders. Basically, it is "scouting for adults." And in the process of teaching those skills, we could also re-emphasize boy leadership and get the adults out of the boys' hair.

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

To put all of this into reality, a new SM would probably find himself in one of two situations. 1. He takes over in an existing Troop, and 2. He starts a new Troop.

 

In situation 1 he hopefully has had time to go on outings with the Troop and learn from the existing, experienced leaders. Shouldn't be a problem for most.

 

In situation 2 he will likely be starting a Troop with fairly young Scouts. If that is the case, he and the boys are going to start off slow. A Day Hike with backpacking gear to get ready for a backpacking overnighter. Baby steps for himself and the Troop, if you will. They are all moving up the learning curve, and the SM just has to be a few steps ahead of them. They won't even be eligible for High Adventure for a few years, so their idea of HA is much different than that of a 14 y/o.

 

Around here the other Troops are very willing to help out. When we first started, we had several offer to let our Troop attend trips with them. In a small town where Troop are competing, this might be a problem, but if the SM can network within the district, or even the council, he should be able to find a brother Troop to help them out.

 

Our greatest resource for this type of training is us - other units in the BSA. Maybe we just need to find a way to formalize a program with other units/leaders as trainers.

[BrentAllen]

One other thought...

 

Doesn't the BSA have an organization who's mission is to promote camping, along with service? Maybe they (we) are just being under-utilized.

[Scouter&mom]

One thing that some people doesn't realize is that the availability of resources is not any where near the same. Brent, you and I live in the same state.. from some of your posts I would think you are probably are pretty close to one of the REI stores.. For me, the closest is 4-5 hours driving time and that is the Atlanta NE store. Our town (the largest in the council) does not have any type of true outdoor store. There are a couple of hunting/fishing stores in each town or WalMart. We are even 100+ miles from a Camping World or Bass Pro.. I have been searching for an outdoor activities club to join or to at least beg help from and haven't been able to find one within 100 miles. This really hurts the Scouts, because even though I have canoed some and enjoy it, I don't feel competent enough to take a group out on one of the local creeks or rivers and I don't have a clue where to gain that competence.. things like knowing the correct way to respond to an alligator in the river.. or how to help keep a boy from panicking when he flipped a canoe. I will personally take a canoe and hit the creeks or rivers, but not being responsible for others. The troops around here don't tend to work together on things like this.. our council has a very small professional staff and most troops just do their own things.. and that other organization has the same struggles of having qualified adults, so they don't do much other than weekends at camp, and special events like bus to sectionals 8 hours away (we are at the far end of a very geographically spread out section).

[BrentAllen]

Scouter & mom,

We only have 3 REI stores in Atlanta, and one of them is only 10 minutes away, so yes, I have it rough (on the wallet). :-)

 

Our council offers some great programs - canoeing MB weekend at Allatoona Aquatics Base is great for the boys, as well as the leaders. They have plenty of camp sites, so you can make a camping weekend out of it. Flint River has something similar, and they are probably alot closer to you (assuming you are in the southern part of the state). The Savannah council offers a High Adventure sea kayaking trip down the coast, with plenty of instruction. I think they also offer weekend programs for canoeing as well, but could be wrong.

 

There are options out there that aren't too expensive, but may require some driving.

[shortridge]

I think BrentAllen hit on something with the OA reference. In my experience, the lodge's role generally stops with a promotional video for summer camp and a where-to-go camping guide, which can go for several years without updating if there's youth turnover. There's certainly nothing prohibiting a lodge or chapter from running a training weekend, a LNT awareness workshop or even a skills shindig during an inductions weekend.

 

The big question would be whether Scouters will voluntarily take instruction from Scouts, even experienced ones.

 

Other partner organizations, to answer the original question, could include college or university outdoor clubs. They often don't do a good job of advertising themselves in the community. And many local Sierra Club chapters have planned outings.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Eamonn]

I'm trying to work out what the "f" is for?

 

Most of us would agree that a weekend working on outdoor skills is not going to do the job.

But then again a lot depends on what the job is?

The program that I see offered by most of the Troops in our area could be offered by two little old Ladies sipping tea.

Summer Camp is the same place, same time, same site, year in and year out.

Five District Camporees take care of most of the other months.

Who needs skills?

Eamonn

[Lisabob]

Wow. 5 district camporees? Really? We have 2 or 3 a year and one of those is a council event.

 

Sometimes a little perspective is a good thing, I guess. My son's troop camps 10 months of the year (they take August and December off). They go to a different summer camp every year. Of course we don't have a council boy scout summer camp but even if we did, I don't think we'd be that stick-in-the-mud about it. They have a few old favorite campouts that the boys bring back almost every year, but they mix it up too, in terms of theme, activity, and location. Actually there is sometimes a complaint that his troop does not participate in enough district events! (They only attend a district or council camporee every 2 years or so.)

 

And they're not unusual around here. 5 of the 6 troops in our town and the town next to us act pretty much just like this, although most of the others do participate more in district events. (The 6th one sounds kind of like what Eamonn describes!)

 

Hard to imagine being part of a troop that doesn't do much in the way of adventure. Then again, maybe that's why the 6th troop I mentioned above is very small and almost folded last year.