Stre-t-c-hing the G2SS at OLS

[Lisabob]

Not to mention grumpy. Put some sugar in your coffee!

 

There's nothing wrong with trying to teach boys (and adults) to be a bit more aware and respectful of flora, fauna, and other people while outdoors. LNT may not be perfect but it simply does not resemble what you are trying to make it out to be.

[Basementdweller]

My experience with training and scouting has been all over the board, from really terrible to most excellent. The best have been when the instructors imparted relevant personal "believable" experiences. Had one instructor who was quite the story teller. Yes, some instructors have an agenda of their own, but I have found gentle hints will keep them on track.

 

As far as LNT goes, I am a believer in the concepts and practices. Some of the instructors are a bit over zealous but that is to be expected. the saying used to be "take only pictures, leave only tracks" now they don't even want those. What can I say my tent is bright orange and by pack is bright yellow, guilty as charged.

 

 

 

[GaHillBilly]

Ok, I am grumpy about this.

 

But, unfortunately even after you allow for my grumpiness, the problem doesn't disappear.

 

From an adult perspective, most of us have learned that Santa Claus doesn't really bring gifts; that drinking beer will not make me attractive to hot girls, but will just make me fat; and that regardless of who wins the Presidential race, they won't keep most of their promises because they can't.

 

But youth and young people are "idealistic". This means they still, to a greater or lesser degree, believe that we actually MEAN what we tell them. Over time, they discover that we didn't really mean those things.

 

I assure you that the young, naive Scouts who 'taught' the LNT section of OLS actually BELIEVE that they can learn, and could teach us, to "Leave No Trace". They were naive. They were ignorant. They were idealistic.

 

But, they were also misled, by adults who know better.

 

Now I know it's mostly just me. But I HATE lying to kids. And I believe Scouting stands for, or at least is supposed to stand for, honesty and integrity ESPECIALLY in our communication with kids.

 

I know those young adults who taught LNT, will eventually be disillusioned, and will catch on the fact that we don't REALLY mean what we say. They haven't caught on yet, some of them will buy into the lie themselves, in some cases without even noticing. But, I promise you, some of them will see the lie, or others like it in Scouting, recognize it as a lie, and blame those who lied to them for the betrayal and disillusionment they feel.

 

And, they'll have a valid point, when they do.

 

Several of you have talked about things like "aspirational goals". Well, if you "aspire" to be trustworthy in Scouting, a place to start is to get honest about LNT. Where LNT is valid, it seems to add nothing to the Outdoor Code. But where it does add to the Outdoor Code, it's mostly bogus and dishonest.

 

 

 

So, while I suppose I'm picking nits, I think this nit is a rather important one, that should not be allowed to grow up in to a biting and breeding louse which sucks blood out of Scouting!

 

GaHillBilly

[John-in-KC]

GaHillBilly,

 

First, Leave No Trace is not something the Boy Scouts of America invented. It's a separate organization, which has about a 15 year history. Want to read it? Go here:

http://www.lnt.org/aboutUs/history.php

 

The simple fact is recreational land managers in the US have "bought into" the LNT ethic. In fact, the original concept of "leave no trace" belongs to the US Forest Service, US Department of Agriculture. The slogan dates to the 1960s.

 

Think back to our training in NLE and either SM Fundamentals or Troop Committee Challenge. One of the Methods of Scouting is to instill ideals in our young people. LNT, as an outdoor ethic, is an ideal. In fact, there are implementations of LNT for the front country as well as the back country.

 

So... if you cannot wrap your head around LNT as an ethic, drop back five yards... you mentioned the Outdoor Code ... use it as a working model instead.

 

Does that make sense?

[Bob White]

HillBilly try and follow us on this Okay? Leave No Trace is just a title..a t i t l e.

 

They probably considered something like "Good practicies for being responsible users of the outdoor resources when hiking or camping in the backcountry" but it didn't fit on the letter head. So they thought about the old camping axiom of "Take only photos and Leave only footprints" and thought...'leave only footprints' thats's not bad, how about 'leave only footprints?

 

No that wouldn't work either said the guy from Georgia, what if you are in a field and there is nothing to impress you footprint in. You can't say leave your footprint if you can't actually leave your footprint.

 

The Georgian pondered aloud. What can we leave, he muttered. Oh lets say 'Leave No personal belongings', no better yet "Leave something but not a bunch of stuff".

 

No, that just doesn't sing, how about Leave no litter? No, we want to say more than that. What would be the our ultimate goal in preserving the outdoors for other to enjoy... Well...how about..."Leave no Trace". Wow! But let's remember it's only the title. What's important is the practicies within the program itself. Everyone agree? Show of hands. Leave No Trace it is then. Let the record show that only the guy from Gergia voted nay.

 

WAIT....What if someone thinks that we actually expect people to not be able to leave a trace? What person would think that? It doesn't matter what do we do then. That's easy tell them that the actual name of the program is "Good practicies for being responsible users of the outdoor resources when hiking or camping in the backcountry" and ask them how the weather is in Georgia.

 

 

So HillBilly..did we ever tell you what the actual name of the LNT program is?

 

 

 

 

By the way how's the weather?

 

 

[evmori]

that drinking beer will not make me attractive to hot girls

 

Well if the hot girls are the ones doing the drinking, anything is possible!

[BrentAllen]

GA,

After reading your posts, I'm reminded of Buddy the Elf, entering that greasy spoon to congratulate them on really having the World's Best Cup of Coffee! Better warn your kids that Disney World isn't really another world, it's just a place down in Florida.

 

From the LNT web page:

Leave No Trace is an national and international program designed to assist outdoor enthusiasts with their decisions about how to reduce their impacts when they hike, camp, picnic, snowshoe, run, bike, hunt, paddle, ride horses, fish, ski or climb. The program strives to educate all those who enjoy the outdoors about the nature of their recreational impacts as well as techniques to prevent and minimize such impacts. Leave No Trace is best understood as an educational and ethical program, not as a set of rules and regulations.

 

 

If you, your kids and your Scouts can't understand that concept and get past the marketing name, I think you have bigger problems. Remember, the Scout Oath says we will do our best.

[SR540Beaver]

GHB,

 

What specifically is this "lie" we all are perpatrating on our youth?

[GaHillBilly]

I didn't intend this to be a post about LNT, and I regret that my grumpiness got away from me.

 

But, I also regret that my grumpiness gave y'all an easy way out, and allowed you to ignore the substantive portions of my posts.

 

The facts are simple:

+ LNT is NOT just a title; people take it literally, and there's evidence of that on this forum, as well as in my experience at OLS. My guess is that many of you can recall further evidences of this, if you'd only choose to do so.

+ The LNT interpretive statements are themselves incompatible with wood craft and junior naturalists -- BobW never responded directly to a single one of my observations; he just changed the subject.

+ LNT is not an "aspirational goal" unless you actually and genuinely aspire to achieve that goal. Merely gazing in the direction of a goal, doesn't make that a goal you "aspire to"!

+ LNT is internally self-contradictory. The mere existence of LNT "hunter ethics" is inherently incompatible with the example ethical interpretations of goal #6 concerning wildlife. LNT has all the hallmarks of being a deliberate Trojan horse: there are numerous reasons to believe that many of its developers are operating on a pragmatic, "we'll take what we can get, now" but with an 'aspiration' to actually achieve true LNT requirements later. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll find PETA people scattered among the ranks of LNT developers and promoters.

+ BSA committment to LNT, both as a title, AND in the more detailed 'ethical guides' is dishonest, unless you as a Scouter ACTUALLY intend (aspire!) to following it.

+ LNT principles, applied at some -- fortunately not all -- local parks and preserves prohibit all off trail activity. Of course, this is no surprise: LNT pretty completely prohibits allowing a Scout to EXPLORE a natural area

 

 

It bugs me no end that I'm going to have to teach my son that this is one of those points where it's necessary to deliberately lie, and say he'll follow LNT, even though we won't. He (and I) will continue to skip rocks; examine animal burrows and nests; catch and release crawdads, some snakes, Eastern fence lizards and skinks; stalk animals we want to observe; and pick the occasional flower. And, because we will do those things, my son and the other Scouts I work with will grow up to know, understand and love nature, not as the vague and undefined concept, Nature; but as the sum of all it's amazing details and particularities.

 

They will know what sassafras and sorrel taste like; and will know to look for hummingbirds when they see trumpet vine in bloom. They will know the taste of black walnuts and rare chestnuts, and why chestnuts are rare and what juglone (from walnuts) and how Indians used it. They will know that a bird is a woodpecker from its dipping flight and that another is a swallow, from its flight. When we find a copperhead, we'll observe it . . . and if it's in an area frequented by people, we may even kill it. They'll see and marvel at black widows -- even when they are white -- and learn why there's not much use in killing them, unless they are in your house. They'll avoid stepping on a day old fawn, if we are lucky enough to see one, but they will look. They'll learn that -- contrary to our LNT instructors -- touching a bird nest does not cause the parents to abandon it, and that you can often replace a chick successfully.

 

They will not learn, as B-P's generation sometimes did, that nature is only "red of tooth and claw", but they will learn that it often is, and that it is never, unless humans are involved, beneficent!

 

Because I know enough to do so, we (and the other Scouts with me) will not disturb the endangered and threatened species endemic to the places we visit. We will not create trails unnecessarily, because I don't like them, and they are usually unnecessary, since we can follow game trails.

 

And, because of all these things, the boys I work with will ACTUALLY know and care about natural things far more than BobW and his ilk, who imagine in their foolish ignorance that one can walk in the woods without disturbing animals.

 

These things we will do, and these things they will learn, because I can do them, and because I can teach them.

 

And if I'm forced to lie on LNT pledges, I'll do so, but I'll hate the necessity and and I'll hate y'all's dishonesty that forces me to do so. But, unlike y'all, I'll acknowledge my lie, to myself and to God.

 

I'm done here.

 

 

GaHillBilly

[SR540Beaver]

GHB,

 

You must be from Missouri, the SHOW ME state. This comes directly from the LNT website. Cap letters are mine for emphasis.

 

Leave No Trace is an national and international program designed to assist outdoor enthusiasts with their DECISIONS about how to REDUCE their impacts when they hike, camp, picnic, snowshoe, run, bike, hunt, paddle, ride horses, fish, ski or climb. The program strives to educate all those who enjoy the outdoors about the nature of their recreational impacts as well as techniques to PREVENT and MINIMIZE such impacts. Leave No Trace is BEST UNDERSTOOD as an EDUCATIONAL and ETHICAL program, NOT as a set of RULES and REGULATIONS.

 

Regardless of how some bonehead may misinterpret LNT while teaching it, this is how LNT defines itself. I ask you, which should you pay attention to, a poorly informed instructor or the organization itself? The purpose of LNT is for you to be able to enjoy nature just as you described in your last post, but to minimize your impact so folks coming in behind you can enjoy it just as much. Consider this, Pappy's view of enjoying nature was to have his boys cut down trees, dam creeks, dig holes and to kill an animal with their bare hands. Do you want to take your boys to the same location he just visited? What a lovely view......not to mention the scattered animal parts laying all around. Unfortunately, a lot of those kinds of activities occured in years past. LNT's goal is simple. Good stewardship of the nature surrounding us so we can enjoy it today and our neighbor can tomorrow.

 

No lie is necessary. Teach what it is instead of what some over zealous misinformed person took as gospel.

 

Let me tell you about one of our best loved annual campouts. We do a turkey cookout each November. Prior to the scouts arriving, we have a backhoe dig a pit about 3 feet wide, 4 feet deep and 30 feet long. The boys build numerous fire lays in the bottom and stack it with small brush. At midnight, we pour some kerosene on it and light it. From midnight to 6 AM, the adults feed numerous ricks of wood into the pit to build a deep layer of coals. We butter 14 turkeys and wrap them in multiple layers of foil and enclose them in baskets made from chicken wire and bailing wire. Then we bury them in the coals at 9 AM, throw on some dirt and let them cook for 4 hours. After removing them, a tractor comes in and fills the pit back in. This is all done on private land with the permission of the landowner. The wood we use comes from downed and nusiance trees he wants removed.

 

Is that LNT? Heck no. But it is on private property and we have the landowners permission. Do we act that way when we take the boys backpacking in the Pecos Wilderness in New Mexico? Heck no. We try to follow LNT principles as BEST we can.

 

GHB, you are trying to make LNT a black and white, all or nothing propostion and it simply is not. My suggestion would be for you to get the LNT materials and teach it yourself to correct the misinformation out there that you came across.

(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Beavah]

Yah, GHB. LNT is just a title. And LNT the organization can't be responsible for BSA trainers, some of whom have never done a LNT trainer course themselves.

 

If I were to characterize the LNT ethic, it's to leave no medium to long-term trace, and reduce short-term impacts where possible. We all recognize we will leave footprints. What we want to do is avoid causin' long-term trail damage, or creating an "informal" trail where there was none before. We don't want to set up camps next to watering holes, causing animals to change their long-term behaviors, or stress animals durin' times when they're vulnerable.

 

Yah, we could do that by regulation, eh? That's the trend. Hunting is awash in regulation with very limited seasons. Every time I go out these days I see longer and longer lists of posted regulations at trailheads.

 

Your last "fact" that some parks and forests are prohibiting all off-trail exploration is true, eh? But that's not caused by LNT, that is exactly what LNT was developed to prevent. LNT is meant to educate folks about proper off-trail activity so that land managers are not forced to continue the current practice of imposing regulatory restrictions in order to fulfill their mission of conservation.

 

In that way, it's 100% in line with da BSA's mission of educatin' kids and promoting ethical choices. If you don't care for regulations and restrictions, the alternative is education and personal ethics. What we're tryin' to teach is the ethic of competent wilderness users and land managers, so that those responsible for conserving our resources for the future don't have to do so by regulation and restriction.

 

But it does mean that some of us who grew up campin' in other ways have to learn new tricks. What we used to do doesn't work so well when National Parks and wildlands are experiencing the highest number of user-days ever. Those fire lays we once thought were "minimal impact" start to look pretty major when yeh multiply 'em by a million.

 

I can't tell whether you're an old-time camper who is just annoyed by the fact that the ethics of campin' have changed and you're being asked to change what you're used to, or whether you're just hung up on a marketing title because yeh won't be bothered to take the time to learn what it means. I suspect it's the former, from your statements. Tough for us old dogs to learn new tricks. I was convinced when I saw what had happened to some campsites and natural forest areas of my youth as a result of increased user-days. Almost brought me to tears.

 

As to your "facts"

 

+ Yep, folks take LNT ethics seriously. That's what it means to be ethical. That means they try hard, not that they're perfect.

+ Yep, LNT is incompatible with some traditional woodcraft. That's because some traditional woodcraft is incompatible with good conservation. In those areas, we old timers and old-time youth programs need to change, or we will be rightly labeled unethical or "bad" campers, and suffer further restrictions on access to public lands.

+ Yep, LNT is an aspirational goal. It aspires to Leave No Trace of our passage in the wild lands to future campers. That can be achieved.

+ Nope, I know some of da LNT developers personally. Ain't a PETA person among 'em. Some expert fly fishermen, though.

+ Yep, we as scouters actually intend to be ethical outdoorsmen. That's part of the requirements for being a good scouter.

and, finally,

+ Nope, it is not the LNT ethics which cause some parks to prohibit all off-trail activity. They do that because off-trail users have caused discernible damage. That is exactly the situation which LNT is designed to prevent.

 

Me personally, I want da next generation of scouts to be better than I was, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

I'm still curious how the statements made at OLS stre-t-c-hed the G2SS.

 

Totin' Chip isn't mentioned in G2SS, at least not that I could find. The LNT program is mentioned only in passing, as a reference for training on minimal-impact techniques.