FScouter Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 "This is one of those rare instances where BSA has written something that isn't very clear." There may be some good arguments for simultaneous tenure. It matters not. BSA says "no". The old "isn't very clear" argument doesn't fool anyone. Any suggestion to skirt the requirements by twisting the arm of the training chair is abhorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 Are they really saying no? My old DE took the position of "different position -- different tenure." In officiating, we always look at the spirit and intent of the rule. What is the intent here? Can we get a ruling from a professional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 How about an OPINION from a former pro? In the ideal world that is national, a Scouter should have only one registered position, i.e only being a SM, only being on the Dis. Comm,only being a commissioner, etc. And we are told to recruit, recruit, recruit so that no one on the district committee should wear multiple hats, just as no one should wear multiple hats within the units BARRING the IH/COR/CC as one person can hold two or all three of those postions. However we don't live in an ideal world at times, and we are forced to have one person wearing multiple hats. I'm a good example, I was a UC and Training Chair at the same time because no one wanted the training job. Now I am a OA Chap. Adv. and Lodge AIA adviser. I know one gentleman who was a CM, ASM, DisCom (on three different committees: camping, membership, and CS Activities). He just recently gave up CM to be a Vent. Adv. So it's not always possible to have the one person, one job rule. So I was told by other DEs and my FD that separate PORs equal separate tenures. BUT you could not use the same activities for the requirements. Again this is what I was told to do in my council. I strongly recommend talking to someone on the council training committee on that one. On another note, most leaders either don't know about or don't care about the knots. In the person I mentioned above,he only cared about his Eagle and AOL knots. It was only when the scouts in his troop got on his case that he became interested in knots. As for me, the only reason why I started wearing knots, other than my Eagle, AOL, and Rel. Award, is that I was constantly being questioned on "what I knew about Scouting/OA" when I was a 22 YO Chap. Adv. For whatever reason people stopped questining me when I started wearing my Scouter's Training Award. Heck I still haven't placed my Dis.Com. Key knot on all my uniforms, and it's been over a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 Gee, what does that say about the Scoutmaster of the Troop I serve who is also the Council Training Committee Chair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 I am sure that if you asked enough people, even professionals, that eventually you could find someone to be as wrong as you need them or want them to be. That does not make you right. There is nothing unclear in the statements that the BSA has made regarding tenure for these recognitions. Finding someone else to agree with you will not make the statements on the requirements incorrect. it will just make the two of you wrong together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 "Gee, what does that say about the Scoutmaster of the Troop I serve who is also the Council Training Committee Chair?" That's he's probably busier than he needs to be. Recruit, recruit, recruit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NobleUncas246 Posted August 18, 2008 Author Share Posted August 18, 2008 Well, I didn't mean to bring up a world of controversy - I just thought I could get some opinions and check with my council... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilLup Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 " Well, I didn't mean to bring up a world of controversy - I just thought I could get some opinions and check with my council..." A fine plan. On this forum, however, you would get controversy saying that the sun is shining particularly if there were an official BSA publication on sun shining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 The sun is NOT shining!! The four walls in my office never vary in shading or light levels Of course it doesn't help my office has no windows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghermanno Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 In answer to the actual question, let me state the following: Can you count the same years of service towards more than one award? Yes, just as an atheist can pledge alligiance and become Eagle. Will the District sign the award card? Maybe. Most of teh time the District reps trust us leaders (Trustworthy, Loyal,...). Is National wrong not to allow work on more than one at a time? Maybe. I think so but it is THEIR program. If we want them to change the rules, ask them to. Can we teach honesty if we are not honest? (Answer for yourself.) BSA does NOT allow using the same "clandar periods" for working on different knots. It is not "vauge" it is plain in black and white. We are supposed to be guides/authorative figures. Do we want the Scout to emulate rule breaking? Are you going to give him Eagle because he is comming up on his 18th birthday even if he hasn't earned it? You can doctor the paperwork.... Just like the adult knots.... Just my $0.02 (I appologize if I spelt anything wrong.) Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 "BSA does NOT allow using the same "clandar periods" for working on different knots. It is not "vauge" it is plain in black and white." Do they or don't they? The former pro says they do. My pro said that they did. A bunch of volunteers say they don't. It all comes down to "what is tenure?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 I just spent some time online looking up the forms and what not. Sorry I turned in my district training book to my successor, so it took some time. I will have to change what I said and have to agree, you can't use the same calendar period except for the following awards; Scouter's Training Award, SM Key, Varsity Scout Leader Letter Award, Varsity Scout Coach Key, Sea Scouter training Award, Skipper's Key, Venturing Leader Training Award, and Venturing Advisor's Key Award. Why those are an exceptions, I can only guess it's because the respective Keys require the respective Training Awards/Letter. Do I think it's right, no, because we have several outstanding leaders doing multiple jobs in multiple programs. Am I going to follow it, yes because we must set the example for the youth. Will I now check to see if everyone wearing knots did not overlook the tenure note, NO, it a done deal. Do I think it's a big deal, no because in the two years I was the district training chair, I had 0 applications submitted to me. And it's not from a lack of discussion at training sessions or a RT or two. At least the volunteer I mentioned in my previous post can get the Scouter's Training Award, Venturing Leader Training Award, and Venturing Advisor's Key Award using the same tenure as that is allowed by national. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 How do you know the internet has current and correct information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 True, the internet can have incorrect info. But it's the pdfs of the progress records of the various awards off the council website. none of those awards has the tenure note that the rest of the awards do. And if council doesn't have it updated, well what can i say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilLup Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 " How do you know the internet has current and correct information? " Do you mean the BSA official website? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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