Is Wood Badge just about "the beads"?

[HICO_Eagle]

AvidSM said "To me, the Wood Badge beads are a symbol of commitment to scouting."

 

I'll let my 23 years of adult Scouting, 5 years of Boy Scouting and 3 years of Cub Scouting speak to my commitment to Scouting thank you very much. I don't need beads and I certainly don't need another overblown management course to demonstrate that.

 

The bottom line for me is that I would take the old original Wood Badge course in a heartbeat. I'm not wasting 2 hours much less 2 weekends on the kind of garbage I've seen posted on the WB21C program. Taking SMF was bad enough but at least it didn't proclaim itself to be a graduate level course while teaching grade school pablum.

[CHLees3rd]

HICO_Eagle,

 

Based on your post and a few assumptions on my part, I'm going to guess you made Eagle in the 80's like I did and have been in Scouting ever since then. If I am correct, then I wonder why you would want to take the old Wood Badge course compared to the new one. I took the old course in 1992 and found that the outdoor training parts were, at least for me, to be a waste of my time. While I did add to my knowledge the management lessons it taught, I found myself bored most of the time having to sit through classes like Totin'Chip and fire building. As for meeting new people in the council, forget about it. Other than my patrol members (which I will add changed between the first and second weekends, ) my patrol guide, and a few staffers, I have no idea who the Scouters were in the other patrols. I knew the SPL because he was in my troop and the Course Advisor whom I had previously met at summer camp; however, I never even spoke with the Scoutmaster or any in his circle. In fact, I got the sense that such discussions were not wanted on their part. Is this really the type of course you would take in a heartbeat? I sure as heck don't want anymore courses like that. I sum up my first Wood Badge experience like this: I did my three weekends and I learned a few things.

 

In my opinion, the old course doesn't hold a candle to the new course which I took in 2008. The outdoor skills part was discarded as the thinking was that Scouters at this level most likely already have the training. Are there participants who could use the outdoor skills training? Yes, but that is not the focus of the course. Is there a lot of management theory? Yes, just like in the old course. The difference is that the new course flows much better than the old course did. Discussions and interactions between patrols and staffers is encouraged. The new course gets people excited about Scouting where as the old one did not. I remember very few Scouters who were fired up and motivated after completing the practical part of old Wood Badge course. After the new course's practical part, everyone appeared fired up.

 

Now I know that mileage varies from person to person. Some here on the list have had horrible Wood Badge experiences with the new course while others can not stop praising it. When people ask me about the course, I tell them what I experienced and I use the analogy of the gas chamber training I did at Marine Recruit Training: you hear stories about it and you think you know what is going to happen, but the truth is you don't really know until you do it. If you think the new course will help you, then take it. If you think it will not help you, then do not take it. But don't be for or against it based on other's war stories.

 

Chazz Lees

[ScoutBox]

Thank you Chass for your great reply. Ive been reading this thread for a year now I beleive, and you have finally written something a bit more tangable. I see very well what your saying. I didnt attend the older WB, I went last year to 21CWB. I learned a LOT! Had a great time, met some many other great people, sure there were a few that brought thier military rank with them, but they were hamless students like myself, and have now ben asked to TG the next course. I cant wait. One thing I am finding as an ASM is that Im having to buy all of the old books to learn how to be a proper SM. The new ones for th emoment arent up to speed. Although I did hear that the new SM Hand Book might be.. anyway, WB Made it possible for me not only to learn more about leading boys, but also let me ask questions and find out what I needed for my level of scouting. I am in contact daily with many of those people from ym course, and not only my Patrol, but also all fo the course leadership. I have heard a lot of people talk down about teh course, and have never taken it. Ive also heard from a few who have taken it, and got a bad taste from it. Thsi I can understand, because there are a lot of factors involved. Patrol members, TG, Upper staff, and of course teh Good Old Boy metality you can find in some people. Your not a good old boy, because you dont have any Knots, and havent been aropund or didnt attend old WB, so you cant be as good as they.. anyway, I didnt have a bad experince in my course, and rcommend it too all Scouters, and 18 and above Venturers. Which we had several on our course. These Scouts learned a lot.. and have taken away that knowledge with them back too school etc.. I have one kid that was on the course who is only 19 years old. Hes the COuncil Lodge Chief, and hasnt finished his German High School Education yet. He is German. Also an Eagle Scout and has earned all fo the advancements for Venturing. Very smart kid, and a good teacher. He will also be Staffing the course is some why. But again this si the future here.

 

Anyway, thanks for your reply, and thats for the help in my understanding of what WB was like.. from your point of view.

 

SB

[HICO_Eagle]

Chazz --

 

I'd be interested in the old ORIGINAL course specifically because a lot of the outdoor material was shelved in the 70s. I've obviously done quite a bit in the outdoors since earning Eagle (in fact, more than I did as a Scout) -- learned a lot more as ASM to an old school SM and talking with other SMs at summer camp (again, old schoolers who likely took WB while it followed GBB's teachings) -- but I can see there's still much more to learn.

 

I'm already excited about Scouting -- Scouting the way it was, the way it should be. National's direction on 21st Century Scouting excites me less and less every year as it falls prey to faddism and New Age psychobabble. The descriptions I've read of the "Everyone Wins" game just make me want to retch (as did my district's centennial camporee show that spoke of Scouting as a "world peace movement" -- there were certainly elements of BP's world brotherhood program directed toward peace but it wasn't a "world peace movement" in the modern context). I got back into Scouting after college to pay back what I'd gotten as a youth and to assist the boys, not to add junk to my uniform, boost my ego in front of other adults, etc.

 

I'm specifically NOT interested in more management school garbage. I've taken too much of it already and think most of it isn't worth lining my pet cages with. My observation of today's Scouters is that we have far more adults with management or leadership experience than outdoor skills experience -- which is all the more reason to return Wood Badge to its original focus. I actually like elements of the White Stag program -- I just don't think it should be Wood Badge. I'd go back to GBB's 20 Tools as Kudu proposed. We have a lot of men and women now who want to be active as Scouters but weren't Scouts as youth so don't have any idea what GBB meant by the patrol method, don't know how to build a proper campfire or cook over coals. Shoot, many of the activity staff I encounter ASSUME everyone will be using propane rather than coals or white gas -- and those are staffers!

[SMEagle819]

I really like the turn this discussion has taken...

 

Like HICO, I will let my experience speak for my dedication to scouting. I once wanted to take WB when I was younger (early '90s), but did not take the opportunity. Wish I would have taken it back then, being a young adult. Now, with many more years under my belt, and "management training" courses taken thru work, I don't think I would enjoy the WB21. Also, like some of the others, it seems like the course offered in my area is staffed/run by the "good old boy" network (even though I am now "old," but maybe not a good old boy?), with the people who have either taken it or staff it seem to be cliquish. Taking another week vacation for scouting would not sit well with the better half, either.

 

I enjoy what I am doing, and interacting with the kids. Not sure how much better taking WB would make scouting for me at the present time. However, I going to keep an open mind about it....

[ScoutBox]

Agreed SM Eagle, I like the way this Thread has turned, seemed so negative for so long. And I gree with much that has been said. I got a lot from the course but I was also looking to gain from it. Im involved in a troop that has been poorly run, I was looking for help. I found it, and now am having the support to make the right changes. Our Troop has taken a turn for the positive by now implimenting the Patrol Methed to a Troop that was a one scout show. I also like the work that KUDU has been doing, but since I didnt take the earlier WB courses, can only go by what I know. I have a LOT of outdoor experince, but never enough. I camp more outside of Scouting. over a month this past 2010 year. I think that we as adults need to see what Scouting is really about. The Boys.. And there is only one method that will work to bring those boys into being good men in Scouting, and "it aint management courses". Its the Patrol Method, and getting those boys Camping.. Give them the tools and training to do the PL job, and the rest will work like clock work. We adults are there to help, and help we must. I plan to re-work my Ticket every year, and get more adults to WB, and get their Tickets working in areas where I have missed. One thing I found with WB21C, and that is it has gotten me on the right course, doing the right things, and meeting more people to help me get there. As for wearing the Beads.. well, I havent been awarded them yet. Will I wear them? Sure Will, Why, because I earned them.. Should you as an adult earn yours.. Its up to you. You dont need WB to do the right thing. But it does put some perpective on the task. And has helped me to focus me towards being a better Scouter.. As for the Outdoor Skills, Id love to learn more.. show me the way, Ill do it. I love learning, and I love the outdoors. Sadly, I cant be out there full time working on the things I love. But Ill get there..

[Lisabob]

Overall I have to agree with the notion that you'll get out of WB what you want to get out of it. Nothing will resonate with everyone and there are some parts of WB that I didn't find useful, but I am still glad I did it in 2003 - I learned a lot, it opened my eyes to some other possibilities in scouting, and I am still using it in various ways today.

 

I know I am returning late to the party here but I have to comment on something ghermanno said a couple of days ago, about a Tiger DL who had completed WB but still didn't know much about how troops and packs function.

 

My thoughts:

 

1. In order to take WB, one is supposed to have taken basic leader training for their position already. For a Tiger DL, they should have done cub leader training and therefore ought to have a clue about how a pack operates. But they very likely DON'T know about webelos to scout transition planning, because that's not part of the Tiger DL training. I would be more alarmed about a Webelos DL who had no idea about that, or a Scoutmaster who didn't understand about it (and that happens plenty).

 

2. I know a LOT of troop-level scouters and district/council folks who know next to nothing about cub scouting. Or worse, they think they do, but what they know is either out-dated and therefore wrong, or was never true to begin with.

 

It is fair enough to expect a cub leader to have some clue about boy scouting (and Wood Badge helped me learn a whole lot, when I took it as a cub leader). But turn-around is fair play. I hope you hold your ASM Woodbadgers responsible for knowing details of how the Tiger program works, too.

 

 

[Kudu]

LisaBob writes:

 

I hope you hold your ASM Woodbadgers responsible for knowing details of how the Tiger program works, too.

 

Maybe the solution is to replace the wood beads with baby rattles?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

Spun Thread: Is Rattle Badge just about "The Rattles"?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Kudu, you know over the past month or so I have many posts from other posters giving you and your ideas much support. As I recall I think I made one of them.

 

Does denigrating the Cub Program serve your message any purpose?

 

 

[Kudu]

The Cub Scout program functions as a filter that turns at least 70% of all red-blooded American boys off from Scouting.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

[desertrat77]

Kudu:

 

Amen!

 

And if I may add, sedentary BSA programming does a solid job of discouraging many of those who manage to crossover after the too-long Webelo program.

 

Desertrat77

[BadenP]

Look, no matter how you want to call it WB21 is little more than a management training course and if it were not for the symbolic beads, false prestige, and mythos surrounding it, few would devote the time or money taking it. The course has been made so generic and so watered down from the original that it holds little of value to any scouter except the right to say, "Look at my beads I did it." WoodBadge has lost so much of its original purpose and content it has become little more than a group of scouters many of whom think they are an elite corp of leaders which is so painfully false as we watch the youth numbers continue to drop. Bottom line in todays scouting world WoodBadge is JUST about the beads.

[nolesrule]

I see it more as an interpersonal communication and personal management (as opposed to group management or even leadership) skills training course. In my experience interacting with people both in and out of scouting, these skills are sorely lacking by most adults, and generally those who feel they are above that sort of training are usually the ones who could benefit from it the most.

[Eagle92]

Now, now Kudu, don't knock rattles; Stomp Dance songs, Gourd Dance songs, and some Iroquois songs use rattles, And I know members of my OA chapter love the Iroquois Duck Dance. Just remember some of us are chomping at the bit for our Cubs to become Scouts, as well as taking them to Philmont or Bechtel

 

Seriously though, I have found 1 very valid argument in why WBers, heck all SMs and ASMs really, do need to know more about Cub Scouts: the Cub program has changed, IMHO for the better, over the years to include camping, and we need boy Scouts and Venturers to help get these Cubs in the outdoors. Unfortunately i have found lots of Cub leaders have no expereince camping, but if experienced scouts serve as DCs, and the Scouts work with their CO's pack to get them camping, it can keep those cubs interested.

 

It's kinda sad when a 4 beader, who is also the OA lodge adviser (you know the national honor CAMPER society) states that Cubs don't need to go camping. Kinda sad when scout leaders do not want to help out with Cub camping activities. Kinda sad when troops and crews don't want to provide den chiefs that can make the program more intersting and help recruit the Cubs into their troops.

 

I know of SMs who don't see the need to get involved with their CO's packs, expecting them to automatically join their troop. I saw one troop die b/c the SM would not send the SPL or go himself to talk to the pack leaders, invite the Webelos to meetings and campout etc.

 

As for the Cub Scout program, yes it's very similar to what I went through, but it has improved since I was a cub because now Cubs going OUTING more, Do I think cahnges need to be made to Cub Scouts, absolutely. I think they need more OUTING, but it is kinda hard when other leaders don't think Cubs should go camping.