What Is It Based On?

[Bob White]

Kudu you run various elements together as if they all meant the same thing. The patrol method, is a separate issue from Leadership Development Method. Not all junior leaders are part of a patrol, and not all junior leaders are patrol leaders.

 

The Patrol Method is not the same as the leadership development method yet you constantly intermix them.

 

The BSA, as you continue to point out in your page references, supports the practice of patrols doing activities on theior own and then in another breath you say that the BSA no longer follows the that idea.

 

The BSA does, its just that not all leaders follow the BSA program.

There is very little about the Patrol Method in the training or resources of the BSA program that has changed over the decades. Not all scoutmasters followed the program in the past and not all follow it today. But the BSA still teaches and supports it.

 

Perhaps you live in a part of the country where campgrounds are always large enough to allow Patrols to be 300 feet apart. But you need to come to the realization that that is not always the case. not all camping areas will have that features available. Perhaps in your area State and county parks allow youth to be in a campsite without an adult . Not all states allow that.

 

For you to state that you have to be 300 feet away from another patrol in order to use the Patrol Method effectively is just silly.

 

There IS NO Wood badge approach that patrols be 300 ft apart. I have no idea where you get such things.

 

After having been in several Wood Badge courses I don't even know what you mean by a "Wood Badge approach". Which Wood Badge? Which actiuvity? Which Skill?

 

The BSA approach is that Patrols are separate entities that come together to form a troop. And that managing small groups is easier than managing one large group.So that is what WB does. That is nothing new. We break particiupants in basic leader tarining in small groups. We break participants in New Leader Essentials into small groups. That is not something unique to Wood Badge.

 

A lot of what you post is contrived to fit your opinion has no little relationship to scout past or present.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Pot meet kettle!

 

Kettle shake hands with pot!

[Kudu]

I had some extra time, so I posted a reply to the parent thread "Leadership Development"

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=196748&p=5

[btphelps]

Ever new idea is to be used to insult people. White Stag is evil. -- emb021

 

Whoa! Where did this come from in the midst of thread about Situational Leadership? White Stag has nothing to do with Situational Leadership, nor the rest of this thread. If you want to be informed about White Stag, see their web site www.whitestag.org. You will see their Sharing Leadership is based on Telling-Selling-Consulting-Delegating-Joining.

 

So watch those careless, un-thought comments.

 

Brian

[John-in-KC]

Good evening Mr Phelps,

 

Your Mission is to read the context I went back to the beginning of the thread and re-read.

 

Mr Kudu has a near-fetish against the Leadership Development Method currently part of the Boy Scouting program. Mr emb021 used your program as a specific responsory back to Mr kudu as a near-parody of the comments Mr kudu often makes.

 

Though I know Mr emb021 only from here, I suspect he has some small degree of regard for your program

 

Yes, it's a challenge of internet fora where we have only the written word, and not voice tone or facial expression, with which to express ourselves. Sometimes, one has to be a pretty good parser to pick up on what the poster meant to write.

 

HTH.

[Kudu]

John-in-KC writes:

 

Mr Kudu has a near-fetish against the Leadership Development Method currently part of the Boy Scouting program.

 

A term like "fetish" is a personal attack.

 

The common technique here is to move a discussion away from Scouting theory by characterizing my position as a psychological disability rather than the traditional view of what is best for Patrol Leaders and self-sufficient outdoor Patrols.

 

The implication is that "Boy Leadership" as a product of mental formulas rather than outdoor skills is so inherently superior that any "normal" person would recognize that the correct place for outdoor skills is not in Patrol Leader Training or Wood Badge ("Outdoor Leadership") but as isolated lists of things to be checked off in the Advancement Method.

 

The establishment of IOLS in 2000 was the ultimate victory of this isolation begun with the creation of the Leadership Development Method in 1972:

 

"In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill" (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155).

 

Kudu

 

[Bob White]

"The Place where Scouting works best is where patrols most want to be-in the outdoors. Patrol members who spend the time together outdoors share responsibilities, grow personally, and have plenty of fun-filled adventures. Outdoors is the best setting for Scouts to learn skills,to challenge themselves and to practice respect of natural resources."

 

excerted for the CURRENT Patrol Leaders Handbook, page 69, and is the introduction to the section on leading Patrol Activities.

 

It woukd seem that the BSA still sees outdoor leadership as the core part of patrol leadersip, just as it has always been. And again while Kudu "thinks" tat what he is doing is radical and that the BSa is wrong, he continues to do what the BSA says is the BSa program. He simply does not know what the current program actual says so he has no idea that he is actually following it for the most part.

 

His gripes are really leaa about what the BSA program is and more about what he thinks it is. I believe if he knew the current prrogram better he would have less hostility toward it and more affinity with it.

 

 

[emb021]

"Your Mission is to read the context I went back to the beginning of the thread and re-read.

 

"Mr Kudu has a near-fetish against the Leadership Development Method currently part of the Boy Scouting program. Mr emb021 used your program as a specific responsory back to Mr kudu as a near-parody of the comments Mr kudu often makes.

 

"Though I know Mr emb021 only from here, I suspect he has some small degree of regard for your program "

 

John-in-KC's assessment is essentially correct.

 

I am familiar with WS, even having copies of the 2 books you used to print and sell. When I was at an event when one of the National big-wigs was at, speaking about the upcoming WB/NYLT, I showed him my copies and recommened that they check out your program and incorporate it, rather then chuck it for the latest leadership fads.

 

 

[Kudu]

BobWhite writes:

 

He simply does not know what the current program actual says so he has no idea that he is actually following it for the most part.

 

Another example of a personal attack. I Staff my share of BSA training courses.

 

It is easy to TALK about the outdoors, but the best test of whether training is really "Outdoor Leadership" is just how dirty the instructor's knees get.

 

And if he or she is talking about "requirements," then you are in an advancement checklist course not an Outdoor Leadership course.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Bob White]

And Kudu where exactly does the BSA not support the importance of outdoor activity?

 

 

[Kudu]

I'm talking about get-your-knees-dirty Outdoor Leadership: "This is how to take your Patrol on a hike without adults," then you take the Patrol Leaders on a Patrol hike. Or "this is how you take your Patrol camping without adults," then you take the Patrol Leaders on a Patrol Campout.

 

Something along the lines of William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training Course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol":

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

[Bob White]

But Kudu....The Scoutmaster Handbook, the Patrol Leaders Handbook, the Boy scout Handbook, The Guide to Safe Scouting, The Scoutmaster Specific training...all endorse and support independent patrol activities.

 

Why do you always suggest that this is a missing element of the Scouting program when it is in nearly every Boy Scout related training and resource???

 

I agree it is missing in too many unit programs, but that is a local leadership issue. If they knew and followed the BSA program they would be using Patrol activities.

[Kudu]

Bob White writes:

 

But Kudu....The Scoutmaster Handbook, the Patrol Leaders Handbook, the Boy scout Handbook, The Guide to Safe Scouting, The Scoutmaster Specific training...all endorse and support independent patrol activities.

 

Yes, Bob White, we agree that these BSA publications all endorse and support independent Patrol activities.

 

Why do you always suggest that this is a missing element of the Scouting program when it is in nearly every Boy Scout related training and resource???

 

Because no BSA related training or resource currently in use or in print tells Patrol Leaders or adults exactly (in the pre-1972 step-by-step fashion) how to do it.

 

The problem with "Leadership Development" is that it is based on the indoor assumption that we merely need to check outdoor skills off an advancement list (that allows any indoor boy to earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back); then teach everyone some mental checklist, and a Patrol is good to go off without adults.

 

This is irresponsible and we are only one "Lost Patrol" headline from Utah away from seeing the official BSA support for independent Patrol activities go the way of the First Class Journey.

 

Kudu

 

[eolesen]

Well, the fact that BSA still allow patrol activities to take place without 2DL and a tour permit says to me it is still alive and well as a concept.

 

But I'm not sure the program is the problem as much as parents are, Kudu.

 

Not too long ago, I recommended to a patrol of 15-16 year old boys that they take an overnight backcountry hike without an adults. These weren't inexperienced hikers, either. Several have gone to Double-H, and one to Philmont. We do a lot of backpacking as a troop.

 

From some of the parents' reactions, you'd have thought I told them to spend the night at a topless club followed by some no-holds barred street racing...

 

That's a prevailing attitude outside of Scouting as well, so I don't think you can blame this entirely on what you call the leadership training mentality...

[Bob White]

Are you suggesting that the same leadership skills cannot be used indoors or outdoors?

 

If you taught leadership skills outdoors would the scout no longer to have the ability to lead if he stepped inside a structure?

 

You do realize that leadership development does not just happen at one point in time, but is a continual process that includes formal and informal instruction...right?