What Is It Based On?

[Kudu]

 

Before the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development," Patrol leadership was based on Baden-Powell's two-fold spiritual model of Scouting: 1) "The Religion of the Deep Woods" and 2) "Practical Christianity."

 

1) Leadership Development completely removed training in the leadership-based "Deep Woods" outdoor skills (How to conduct a Patrol Hike, a Patrol Overnight, and Patrol-based Advancement) for the benefit of the urban demographic, in the same way that Outdoor Leadership Skills were removed from Wood Badge and boxed as mere Advancement skills.

 

2) Practical Christianity, the free offering of one's time and talent without compensation (the same for adults and Scouts), was replaced by paying Scouts with Advancement credit for each six month leadership stint.

 

Therefore the spiritual basis for Servant Leadership in the Leadership Develop Method would be more along the lines of:

 

Robert Greenleaf called them together and said, "Holdest thou a popularity contest every six months to determine who shall be my rock in return for Advancement in this world. For verily I say unto you, he that doth not seek compensation for his good works playest not in the sandbox of adult life."

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[eolesen]

Rick, you've gone overboard before, but mocking scripture is a new low.

 

Perhaps it's time to take advantage of the "ignore" feature here like I've done with your posts over on Scouts-L...

[Kudu]

Eolesen,

 

Ten years ago Scouts-L readers like you accused me of mocking "Scouting's deeply held values" when I began to recommend buying olive-drab nylon zip-offs rather than the official dress-designer product that deeply embarrassed so many Scouts.

 

Now I am mocking another inferior BSA product, Leadership Development.

 

Like outdoor clothing, the potential market for outdoor Patrol-based Scouting is larger than for teaching indoor manager skills to boys.

 

Certainly Jesus finds his message reflected more actively in Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Green Bar Bill's "Patrol Method" than in the destructive force of "Leadership Development."

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Gunny2862]

Kudu, really...

 

I am open to persuasion but you are in danger of placing yourself as just a nut job if you continue to misrepresent Servant Leadership. It's clear you haven't read anything about it and are just using it as a buzzword.

 

Go read a book and then come back and try some reasoned persuasion.

 

I understand a lot about what you are Preaching about the Patrol method, but until I can get the boys to do the minimalist (according to your thinking) leadership activities of a "modern" Scout Troop they have no hope of doing what you are asking.

But to just demand the change - it isn't going to happen especially in the metro areas.

 

If you have a problem with Scouting as it exists now, fine, but disparaging other leaders isn't how you get them to change - maybe showing them advantages to GBB's and B-Ps program (as you see it) might work but if all you do is bust our chops do you really think we're going to listen?

[Kudu]

Gunny2862 writes:

 

I am open to persuasion but you are in danger of placing yourself as just a nut job

 

Yeah, it is easier to call someone a "nut job" than it is to address the issues, isn't it?

 

Defenders of Servant Leadership used Christian scripture to explain its meaning, and I countered with how any model in the context of Leadership Development is the opposite of the truths that Jesus (and presumably Greenleaf) represent.

 

Gunny2862 writes:

 

Go read a book and then come back and try some reasoned persuasion.

 

I will go read a book as soon as any one of you can describe how you used Servant Leadership to train even one of your Patrol Leaders to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight (if only 300 feet from the adults on a monthly campout). I might be convinced by Stosh if he has gotten that far, because he uses more Traditional Methods.

 

It is only fair that you demonstrate how the fuzzy kittens of Leadership Development can match Green Bar Bill's version of BSA Scouting (the training that Leadership Development destroyed).

 

Gunny2862 writes:

 

disparaging other leaders isn't how you get them to change - maybe showing them advantages to GBB's and B-Ps program (as you see it) might work but if all you do is bust our chops do you really think we're going to listen?

 

I am against stupid ideas, not stupid individuals. If you believe that I have personally attacked you, then perhaps you are overly-invested in a stupid idea

 

I'm not in this for those of you who think that Wood Badge is a good idea.

 

Some of you are too busy dreaming about how to leverage your destruction of the Patrol Method at summer camp into hiring salad bar contractors to seal the deal on "Summer camp as a vacation from the Patrol Method." As one Regional trainer of Wood Badge Directors put it, food cooked by adults simply tastes better than meals cooked by Scouts using the Patrol Method.

 

No, my posts are intended for Gold Loops that read these forums to find out what people really think, and for the average Joes who refuse to pay $175 to spend three long weekends with a bunch of Den Leaders at Wood Badge, but can't quite put the right words together to explain how much that would really suck.

 

Gunny2862 writes:

 

I understand a lot about what you are Preaching about the Patrol method, but until I can get the boys to do the minimalist (according to your thinking) leadership activities of a "modern" Scout Troop they have no hope of doing what you are asking.

 

I would be happy to trade war stories with you. Mine all start with looking for the Troop's most talented hooligans.

 

Gunny2862 writes:

 

But to just demand the change - it isn't going to happen especially in the metro areas.

 

All of my experience is in mixed neighborhoods "in transition." Leadership Development was created to dumb the Outdoor Leadership Skills out of urban Scouting to make it possible for Star and Life Scouts who had never been on a campout to be "Patrol Leaders."

 

It was a stupid idea.

 

Kudu

 

[emb021]

"I will go read a book as soon as any one of you can describe how you used Servant Leadership to train even one of your Patrol Leaders to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight (if only 300 feet from the adults on a monthly campout). I might be convinced by Stosh if he has gotten that far, because he uses more Traditional Methods."

 

Oh, please.

 

Servant-leadership and all other forms of leadership development have NOTHING to do with the specific job skills for a position. Its a mistake to assume that AND a mistake to condemn them for that. Its like condeming a screwdriver for not being a hammer.

 

Teaching any form of leadership development deals with teaching people how to be a leader. Being a leader is all about getting people to do what needs to be done.

 

WHAT needs to be done is a different thing. LD is the HOW. You've been talking about the WHAT.

 

Developing a patrol leader means you need to cover the HOW (servant-leadership, situational leadership, team development, etc etc) AND the WHAT ("how to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight" etc).

 

The failure to do both this IS an issue I have with many leadership development programs. Too often they get into the HOW (servant leadership, situational leadership, team development et al), but FAIL to do the WHAT. Then the participants flounder because no one went over what they need to do for their job. For instance, no one sat down the PLs and taught them how to do their job or the SPLs or Scribes, etc.

 

Now, if your argument is that the current LD program for youth fail to adequetly teach them HOW to do their jobs, then say so. Stop attaching the leadership development part. That wouldn't be the problem.

 

And on the flip side, ONLY teaching the WHAT and not the HOW (which you seem to want) is also bad for the personal development of the individual. They don't understand how to be a leader in other situations. They don't have leadership skills they can take to a new situation. I had that problem when I went off to college. I knew very well how to be a PL and SPL, but couldn't apply what I learned there to being a club officer. Because I didn't understand basic leadership concepts.

 

 

[Kudu]

emb021 writes:

 

Developing a patrol leader means you need to cover the HOW (servant-leadership, situational leadership, team development, etc etc) AND the WHAT ("how to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight" etc).

 

That is precisely the point. When Leadership Development was invented in 1972, it replaced the WHAT and the real HOW called "Patrol Leader Training") with your abstract version of "HOW" ("Junior Leader Training").

 

TLT is just more of the same.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Gunny2862]

Kudu,

emb021 clearly gets it. You apparently still don't.

Servant Leadership is "again" attitude related not skill related, It is intended to be used in conjunction with other techniques, servant leadership could certainly be seen as ineffectual by someone who caught the attitude but did'nt know how to do anything. You are still trying to "condemn a hammer for not being screwdriver." YOU are the one not addressing the theme of this thread.

I get your exuberance for your topic, and it sonds interesting to me, but you are conflating ideas that don't belong together because you think Servant Leadership is something that it is not.

As far as Christians defending it Scripturally, well, it just so happens that the religions central figure and namesake is thought by some to have been the ideas single greatest practitioner. It would be similar to martial artists not discussing Bruce Lee if the lessons of Jeet Kun Do were being discussed.

I don't think that Servant Leadership is the end all and be all of Scout Ledership because it doesn't do skills training or even managerial techniques per se, but it does give a good perspective to a Leader about why they should care about the success of their fellow Scouts. And THAT is why I like it.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Kudu]

emb021 writes:

 

Servant-leadership and all other forms of leadership development have NOTHING to do with the specific job skills for a position. Its a mistake to assume that AND a mistake to condemn them for that.

 

Its like condeming a screwdriver for not being a hammer.

 

Gunny2862 writes:

 

Servant Leadership is "again" attitude related not skill related, It is intended to be used in conjunction with other techniques, servant leadership could certainly be seen as ineffectual by someone who caught the attitude but did'nt know how to do anything.

 

You are still trying to "condemn a hammer for not being screwdriver."

 

emb021 clearly gets it. You apparently still don't.

 

I totally get it Gunny!

 

Servant Leadership is just one pounding device in a bag of hammers called "Leadership Development."

 

In 1972 Leadership Development melted down all of the screwdrivers (Patrol Leader Training) and pounded them into hammers (Junior Leader Training, 11 Skills Wood Badge, etc.), but is not the hammers' fault that all we have now is hammers!

 

If anything, we need even more hammers because when emb021 got to college he discovered that he could not use his PL and SPL "leadership skills" to pound things!

 

The problem is that ALL BSA training is a series of hammers, and if the only tool you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail ("leadership").

 

For instance, in Scoutmaster specific training, the "Patrol Method" session mentions leadership fifty (50) times in 25 minutes, but never refers to Patrol Leaders or the Patrol Method.

 

The BSA defines the "Patrol Method" as a bunch of nails, causing emb021 and others to define the "HOW" of Scouting as "servant-leadership, situational leadership, team development, etc etc."

 

But the "HOW" of a hiking "Real Patrol" is to how to plan the route, plan the games, plan the food, plan what Advancement skills to teach and sign off, etc. etc. In Patrol Leader Training, the SM acts as the Patrol Leader and holds a Patrol Meeting to show Scouts how to plan a hike, then that Patrol of Patrol Leaders goes on an actual hike. Likewise for a Patrol Overnight.

 

Leadership Development is a series of hammers ending with the ultimate sledge hammer, Wood Badge.

 

But the Patrol Method is more like an erector set. The result of only learning how to use hammers is that we make our Patrols camp close together so that we keep things simple enough to build without a screwdriver.

 

Gunny2862 writes:

 

YOU are the one not addressing the theme of this thread.

 

Yes, the theme of this thread is one particular pounding device, but the Patrol Method does not need so many hammers: It is a GAME!

 

I understand that y'all love hammers and want to make Scouting all about hammers, but Basic Training already provides more hammers than any Scout or Scouter needs to build things with an erector set.

 

We must "Just Say No!" to Wood Badge for as long as it takes to melt the hammers back into the right tools to build "Real Patrols."

 

Kudu

[John-in-KC]

Kudu,

 

Why don't you get on the National Training Committee? From my POV, all you do is rail. Until the curriculum changes, you're not going to be an effective agent of change... Remember, CDs nationwide are obligated to present the curriculum... not their curriculum.

[Kudu]

John,

 

To change things just say "No!" to bad products.

 

And demonstrate practical alternatives.

 

That is how we got the outdoor Uniform.

 

Kudu

 

[John-in-KC]

I started studying the "Traits of Leadership" in the fall of 1974. Back then, ROTC required us to memorize them and their meanings.

 

I've since seen MBO, MBE, MBWA, Lead from the Front, the senior leadership model, Be-Know-Do, and countless other descriptives and/or prescriptives.

 

Between ROTC, Basic Course, Advanced Course, Combined Arms and Services Staff School, the Command and General Staff Officer Course, plus almost 30 years work in the field (active, reserve, and civilian contractor service) and an MPA, the leadership psychology and sociology taught in BSA's courseware isn't bad.

 

Robert SS Baden-Powell was a Cavalryman. He'd recognize that today, the horse as a transportation tool of war is done. He also recognized that he had to place himself in the right place, at the right time, to be an agent of change.

 

That's what you want to be, a major agent of change. So, put your effort where your fingers are. Get yourself on the National Training Committee.

 

If you choose to just keep complaining on an internet forum, there's a different name for you, Sir: Don Quixote de la Mancha. If you recall the plot, that's a tragedy.

 

Are you really a tragic character, or are you destined to do great and good things? That's a question only you can answer, but you must position yourself to be a man of effect.

 

I choose to leave this particular thread. Good day.

[eolesen]

Well put, John...

[Kudu]

John-in-KC writes:

 

Remember, CDs nationwide are obligated to present the curriculum... not their curriculum.

 

So what? My last Council separated the Patrols of all Boy Scout outdoor courses (IOLS, WB, NYLT) by more than 300 feet. The curriculum content is nowhere as important as the participants' actual experience of a Real Patrol.

 

As chance would have it, I recently landed in a Council where we will be able to structure the Patrols the same way. It is surprising how many of you attended Wood Badge where presumably the Patrols were all crowded together on a single parade field.

 

John-in-KC writes:

 

If you choose to just keep complaining on an internet forum, there's a different name for you, Sir: Don Quixote de la Mancha. If you recall the plot, that's a tragedy. Are you really a tragic character...

 

Hardly. My Website has served 32 million (32,007,263) page views of Traditional Scouting information to seven million (7,205,544) unique visitors. What I value is popular enough.

 

My very first page in 1997 was a photographic comparison of nylon "zip-offs" to the BSA official dress-designer version:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

 

That winter I spent a week with the Director of Training for the BSA Boy Scout Division at the national OKPIK certification course in Minnesota. After five days of spirited debates between the two of us, he walked over to share a sewing machine with me for an evening session on how winter clothing is made. Of course I was wearing my nylon version of what the BSA Uniform should look like. He told me that he and other senior executives had already tried to introduce nylon zip-offs as an official Uniform, but they had been blocked (presumably by the national uniform committee).

 

As a matter of fact, the "Centennial Uniform" was produced by circumventing the national uniform committee through a loop-hole that allows BSA Supply to make "minor variations" to the official uniform.

 

So, it is not through BSA national committees that you make things change. There are millionaire executives who know perfectly well that courses like TLT should teach practical skills, rather than wasting time on abstract things like the Mission and Vision Statements.

 

But to change them you must "Just Say No!" to bad products: "As Franklin Roosevelt often told citizens after they had made their impassioned pleas, 'You've convinced me. Now go out and force me to do it'."

 

You simply do not understand the purpose of Internet forums, John. They are a place to exchange ideas. You (and your nitwit fellow-travelers) lash out with personal attacks and you trivialize the great traditions of Scouting because your training does not allow you to think things that you assume the BSA no longer wants you to think.

 

Kudu

 

and a 300 foot Beaver too!

[Stosh]

If BSA only has hammers and the job calls for screwdrivers, one can successfully get that screw flush with the wood surface if they pound hard enough and long enough, but I still think that in the long run most BSA camp knives still have a screwdriver blade that has worked well for many years. I'm finding the traditional methods seem to be inspiring my boys better than the standard program as it currently stands. I have my suspicions as to why that might be, but as long as it's working, I'm going to use them.

 

Stosh