Scouters in Action-Fire Buckets vs. Extinguishers

[raisinemright]

This past weekend, I took Outdoor Leadership Training. On Saturday, someone yelled fire and 50 people who by their very nature run toward the fire...ran toward the fire. It was on very dry ground and was taking off quickly. I had walked near the fire area about ten minutes beforehand and there was no fire. (we think someone was sneaking a cigarette) I ran to our firepit and grabbed our fire bucket, others grabbed buckets, filled pots and grabbed shovels. Some were just stomping it out with their feet. Response was immediate and a potential catastrophe was averted

 

Our intrepid group of leaders knocked the fire down within a few minutes. Later my wife joked about how the Scout leaders almost burned down Scout camp. Anyway, heres the point. The training staff leader told us that Scouts had recently changed policy toward fire buckets and said that extinguishers are now required. Ive been thinking of that comment and would like your thoughts. Since we were at the far end of our camp area, only a few buckets were ready and nearby. We had enough to control the fire then refill the buckets. I maintain that an extinguisher may work on part of the fire, but a typical extinguisher only last 15 seconds, then you have nothing. A fire bucket can be refilled often if you have any sort of water supply. I refilled mine in a swamp, not at the pump.

 

Has the fire bucket rule really changed? What thoughts can you share about this?

 

[FScouter]

You'll have to ask the staff person to tell you where that info came from so you can read more about it.

[SctDad]

There is a lot more to the fire extinguishers than just having them and using them. There are several questions that you must answer.

 

What kind on extinguishers are you getting. A, B, C, Combo, Pressurized water (I think this would work best) I would aviod the chemical ones based on what kind of fires that you will be fighting

 

On the same note, how are you going to refill them after use.

 

When picking your extinguishers you need to think about the type of fire that you are fighting.

 

Ground cover is class A

 

What kind of training are you gonna have. A trained person can make a fire extinguisher effectiveness increase by 60% to 80%.

 

If your camp is set on going with the fire extinguishers then here is my suggestion.

 

2 1/2 gallon pressurized water extinguisher. This if for the reason of ease and use. First most if the fires that you will probably be fighting will be ground cover fires (Or Class A). Plain water is good for these. You can break up the stream with simply your finger or thumb giving you more effective water use.

 

Now there is the question of, we used it how do we refill it. The pressurized water ext are great because you can just go through, relieve all the pressure, fill with 2 1/2 gallons of water, (Hey go figure) and hook up a standard air compressor filling it with air pressure until the guage is in the green. That easy. When you are don for the year, drain out all the extinguishers and store.

 

If you have any other questions please feel free to contact me.

[hot_foot_eagle]

My council removed fire buckets from summer camp because they didn't want untrained people fighting fires and because of the mosquito problem caused by standing water. Extinguishers are present in structures, but not in campsites.

 

Just out of curiosity, did anyone think to call the local fire department or forestry service?

[Eagledad]

>>My council removed fire buckets from summer camp because they didn't want untrained people fighting fires and because of the mosquito problem caused by standing water. Extinguishers are present in structures, but not in campsites.

[Gold Winger]

Haven't been to summer camp in a couple years but we had the simple rule, "Fresh water in the buckets every day."

 

Let's look at a typical scenario. A Scouter decided to sneak a smoke in his tent. Oops, tent is on fire. Everyone says, "we're not trained to do this" and stands back and watches the tent burn. The flames shoot up and catch the trees on fire. Soon there is a conflagration going and the whole camp is on fire.

 

Sounds like the old medication issue.

 

They took fire extinguishers out of my kids' schools for much the same stupid reasons. I guess we now live in a world of "no action is better than some" which goes along with the currently popular thought of "don't try to fight off an attacker, you might get hurt."

[CalicoPenn]

Ever see a modern tent go up in flames? If not, its worth sacrificing a retired tent for a demonstration. Water buckets will be pretty useless once the flame gets going - those tents burn very quickly. That's not to say water buckets won't come in handy to stop the spread of flames along the ground once the tent has burned out, or to put out smoldering sleeping bags, sleeping pads, backpacks and clothing.

 

Prevention is still the key to the fires we'll most likely face. But - if I were in a situation where a modern tent is burning and there's someone inside, I'd want a fire extinguisher - chemical, not water (and of a decent size - not the little dinky things you buy at Walmart) to quickly knock back the flames as fast as possible with people backing me up with water buckets or pressurized water extinguishers if it came to that.

 

As for grass fires - if its small enough, the best fire fighting tool is your Boy Scout red jacket. Use it to cover and smother - once its going, fire needs two things to keep going - fuel source and oxygen. You need to effectively get rid of one. (Water, BTW, acts to cut oxygen - by blanketing the fuel, it prevents the oxygen from keeping the flames going - thus smothering the fire). Other useful tools are rakes and shovels (to remove the fuel source).

 

Most firefighter deaths in greassland fires are caused by a lack of training in fighting grassland fires for professional and volunteer firefighters. Most firefighters are trained to attack a fire to keep it fron advancing. In grassland fires, the fire should be attacked from the rear as a group attempts to cut off a fuel source well in front. To often, the firefighters will rush into a grassland fire off a roadway as the flames are advancing towards them to start putting the fire out - their time would be better, and more safely, spent reinforcing the natural firebreak that the roadway is. A grassland fire can hops, skip and jump around - racing under your feet without you knowing it until it reaches another great source of fuel and the next thing you know, you're surrounded.

 

(Have I mentioned that I went to a rather unique school in Maine for college? I got wildland fire certified while doing my internship with the US Fish & Wildlife Service - and then became a member of my school's Wildlands Fire Fighting team - willing to be called up to fight forest and grassland fires as needed).

 

Calico

 

[Gold Winger]

Notice that people have said, "No fire bucket or extinguishers are present." That's bad. Unless it is a gasoline, oil, jet fuel or the like, water is better than nothing.

 

Maybe we could rig all Scout camps with a halon system.

 

BTW, doesn't the water also serve to lower the temp of the fuel so that it can no longer burn?

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

"BTW, doesn't the water also serve to lower the temp of the fuel so that it can no longer burn?"

 

That's a good question - I've never heard that before. I'm thinking experiment time.

 

Put a piece of paper in the freezer overnight. Next morning, take the paper out of the freezer and attempt to start it on fire with a lighter and see how long it takes to start, compared to how long it takes to start the same kind of paper that hasn't been frozen first.

 

I really had never given thought to lowering temperature of the fuel to stop fire, maybe because of the few years I spent feeding my woodstove with wood direct from my outside woodpile in the middle of January.

 

Calico

[OldGreyEagle]

Because of the mosquito issue and West Nile Virus the thought was to replace the water in the fire buckets with sand. The problem was, we had always been told in case of a tent fire, the best thing to do was drench adjacement tents so the fire wouldn't spread as the chances of saving the flaming tent is pretty remote. Somehow, throwing a dusting of sand on a tent doesnt do much to retard its flamability.

 

Then again, there is the issue of the buckets. At first they were the 5 gallon food buckets we all know and love, and when you fill them with about 4.5 gallons of water, you have a bucket that is as likley to throw the youth in the fire as the actual water.

 

So, have buckets of water that your youth can handle, have a fire drill now and then and also it wouldnt be bad to have a few fire extinguishers around, who knows, it "could" be an electrical fire at some point and water would be a bad idea. I guess it wouldn't be bad for the Troop to have a Fire Plan and drill on it once in awhile, or is that over the top?

[Gold Winger]

The difference between starting wood burning at 20 F or 80 F is going to be minimal since the ignition point wood is between 300F and 800 F depending on species and source of information. But if you get the fuel to below 300F, the fire should go out.

 

Think of embers. They'll glow red hot, covered with ash which cuts off 02. They'll glow red even in a vacuum just because that is the nature of the beast (think black body radiation). We dump water on. It cools the embers so they no longer glow.

 

Of course, I may be off base here.

 

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

An electrical fire at summer camp? That's a pretty advanced camp.

[OldGreyEagle]

You guys never do "lock-ins" or use cabins?

 

You are a rustic brood, and I salute you !

[Gold Winger]

Never had a lock-in. The one time that we used "cabins," they had no windows, no doors and no electricity. Would have been warmer in a tent.

 

 

[SctDad]

There was a question posted about what water does to a fire. As a recent graduate of the Louis Garland Fire Academy (DOD fire Academy) I can tell you a few things about Fire Behavior.

 

Water does not smother a fire unless you have extremely large amounts of water. Gold Winger is right. Applying water to the fire lowers the temperature of the burning material to a point below its flash point/flame point. Therefore stopping the burning process.

 

Yes you should take into account your own safety when you are considering what to do with a burning tent. Saying that the first tent is a loss is probably a good thing. Then stating that you need to protect the other tents around it is also a good thing. Put water on them to prevent them from reaching their flash point.

 

If you have any other questions on this matter feel free to contact me and I will help as much as I can.

 

YiS

 

SctDad