Training & Liability

[scoutmomma]

I've been asked to find out if it is true that BSA insurance does not cover a troop on an outing unless at least one leader on the trip is officially trained according to BSA specs. I have a fellow adult troop leader who, when told this by a Council volunteer, asked for specifics but was not given any official point of reference. Thanks for any insight.

[OldGreyEagle]

this is a general number for the BSA in Irving

 

972-580-2000

 

Have them tell you, beleive them, not us, no mater how nice we are

[scoutmomma]

Hmm...in the time that I've been reading messages here, I don't remember ever seeing a reply of "call National for an answer" before. Have I hit a hot button?

[FScouter]

Why waste a phone call? You got your answer when no reference was cited. Of course I could be wrong. We have plenty of insurance experts here on the forums that know the correct answer. You could go with best 2 out of 3 answers. Then again you might want to ignore what other folks say and just go with the community standard in your area.

[thebigguy]

Im no insurence expert but what I do know is that as long as you are in complince with the guide to safe scouting, the bsa million doller policy is suppost to cover you.

 

Ive never hurd of training being involved in coverige. the national office noraly makes it a point of directing you to your local council for answers to questions although they will answer sometimes. however at the bottom of the scouting safely section on the national web site scouting.org there is a place to e-mail questions specific to health, safety, or risk management to the national council.

[thebigguy]

of corse at the least to protect your self and the boys its always best to have someone trained in youth protection on the campouts. it can be done online and it doesnt take long.

[scoutmomma]

This actually came up in a discussion over the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills training.

[Beavah]

LOL, another liability question. You'd think a scouter was bein' sued every minute! And boy, OGE ain't gonna be popular in Irving this week. They just love floods of direct phonecalls from the several million members.

 

Scoutmomma, if there's one stock urban legend that gets generated by poor trainers, it's the "insurance does not cover if you ....". As a rule, yeh can dismiss out of hand any trainer who makes that claim. Or, if you want to be blunt, ask 'em to show you that in the training syllabus, and when they can't, make an offhanded comment about "gee, shouldn't you be following the training syllabus?"

 

The point of training is so that we can do a better job providing a program to kids. That's the one, only, most important reason for training. No need to make up other reasons. We all care about kids.

 

There is no training exclusion in the BSA master insurance policy, nor is there a training exclusion in the BSA charter agreement which obligates the BSA to provide insurance coverage. Honestly, general liability policies are pretty much a commodity item. It wouldn't be worth an underwriter's time to do the actuarial work to build in that kind of exclusion, and it'd be foolish for da BSA to accept that kind of policy if one did.

 

But like OGE says, if it's a real concern and yeh want a more definitive answer, send your COR or IH to go see your council's business manager who handles the insurance issues. Make sure they express their concerns about continuing the units' charter, and ask to see the terms and limits of coverage for themselves.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Scoutmomma,

 

Yes, indeed, you hit a hot button Some of us have been going round and round about such matters. You've not seen how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin til you've seen the posters of scouter.com decide if something is or isn't Scouting

 

Beavah advised you...

But like OGE says, if it's a real concern and yeh want a more definitive answer, send your COR or IH to go see your council's business manager who handles the insurance issues. Make sure they express their concerns about continuing the units' charter, and ask to see the terms and limits of coverage for themselves.

 

That's really good advice. Your IH or COR can get the answer in about five minutes with that phone call. Professionals really don't like to upset their Chartered Partners...

 

[fgoodwin]

Its probably not the answer you want to hear, but someone must've made the statement that lead to the question, so you should ask them to support their claim.

 

I've never understood why it is that when person A tells person B something, person B then asks person C (i.e., this Forum) to prove it -- go back and make person A (the original claimant) prove their claim!

 

Alternatively, you could contact your local council pro responsible for risk-assessment matters and ask him or her. Anything we tell you is just an opinion -- your council may see things differently than my council.

 

So they (and of the course, the original claimant) are in the best position to give you info relevant to your situation.

[Bob White]

From a training aspect you need to understand that the troop is not covered with liability protection. The liability protection (as opposed to the accident insurance) covers individuals not the unit. Specifically it covers the registered adults and the officers of the charter organization.

 

The protection specifically states that it is in force as long as the individual shows due diligence. Due diligence is is decided most often by a judge, but mainly it means that the individual took reasonable steps to insure the safety of people and property.

 

Would it be likely that a registered leader who had access to training and BSA safety policies and did not follow that training or the regulations (or did not availe themselves of the training) be found liable and find themsleves without BSA liability protection due to failure to show due diligence? Yes, it is possible and in sonme cases likely.

 

Can a person be found liable by the court, but have followed the training and BSA regulations. Yes.

 

So what is the difference. In the case where the registered adult showed that they followed the BSA training and regulations and was still found liable for property damages or personal injury, the BSA pays the legal fees and the court fines. In the other case...they don't

 

No leader should be under the misguided assumption that just because they wear a BSA uniform that they can do whatever they want and the BSA will pay for their mistakes. That is not how the liability protection works.

 

Having current and appropriate training for the activity along with following the regulations governing the activity is how as leaders we show responsible behavior.

 

 

[scoutmomma]

Bob White, I appreciate what you are saying, but that really wasn't what I was asking. We're not trying to duck training here -- just wanting to know if this particular "reason" given is accurate. Thanks to thebigguy, Beavah and John in KC, who gave me what I was looking for.

[Bob White]

Sorry if I missed the mark. To help me in the furure could you tell me what oart of is it true that BSA insurance does not cover a troop on an outing unless at least one leader on the trip is officially trained according to BSA specs. I missed.

Thanks

BW

[scottteng]

Just so Bob White does not get the last word. Due diligence could also be construed to mean that you have filed the proper paperwork with your council office ie tour permit. That puts the onus back on them if they do not squawk that leader x needs training y before leading this outing you have done your duty and they are duly put on notice. Lesson always file your paperwork including the money earning application.

[scoutmomma]

Bob White, the part that missed the mark was where you said:

 

No leader should be under the misguided assumption that just because they wear a BSA uniform that they can do whatever they want and the BSA will pay for their mistakes. That is not how the liability protection works.

 

Kinda felt like you assumed I was asking because we were trying to duck the training, which isn't at all the case. Sorry if you got that impression.