Quality of Training

[briantshore]

In other sections we have discussed Eagle mills and AOL mills. What are your thoughts of training mills. I just took OLS. Not becouse I needed it for my position. I serve as a Den Leader, and Unit Commissioner. I took it to expand my knowledge on the Boy Scout side of things. I have to say that most of the things were skills that I could have taught. But with a large class, some of the area's such as fire building, map and compass, did every one have a chance to show a thourough knowledge of these subjects? I guess what I am really looking at is how well do you absorb the teaching, before the class is done, are you able to prove to the instucter that you have truly learned the lesson? When I served in the army, every year there was a written exam on our job discription that we had to take. Each year there was a set of stations that each person had to go through of common tasks that they were required to show knowledge in. Would this be something that would help us as leaders? What are your thoughts on this?

[Bob White]

I would support any charter organization that wanted to require that of their volunteer leaders, but that is not the role of the coucil or of the national office.

 

In addition, in the Army learning and skills and meeting epected performance level was your job, you got paid for it and it's what you did day in and day out. You cannot expect to be able to mandate that same kind requirement from someone else's volunteers.

[evmori]

The quality of training will vary from district to district. But I do feel training should be required to be an adult leader in the BSA and it should be required by the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

I think you'd find there are plenty of leaders - especially cub leaders - who go to trainings like OLS hoping to really learn new skills, and who get frustrated with the show & tell nature of some of the less-well-executed trainings. What good is it to watch someone do something, without trying it yourself, probably several times, until you feel you can do it on your own?

 

At the same time though, I can see where it is difficult or maybe impossible to truly teach skills to a novice in the space of a day and a half.

 

And then, there is the issue that OLS really ought to be about how to teach these skills to the boys, not how to do these skills. These are not the same thing.

 

I don't know how to resolve this. One thought is to hold an annual "outdoor skills" workshop for interested adults, to teach basic skills. Don't make it mandatory, don't make it part of being "trained," do make it relaxed, fun, and relevant. Then encourage these folks to take OLS afterwards. But, I don't know whether people would do it.

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

The idea that someone will spent a weekend learning all the skills needed to be a great leader and master all the outdoor skills is a foolish one.

The participants who have attended most of the Outdoor Skill courses I have been involved in, tend to be a good mix of people who do know the skills and people who don't. They tend to learn from each other.

I know when I was faced with learning Navigation, I went out and found several "Experts". One guy was too much of an expert!! I think maybe I allowed him to in some way intimidate me. Thankfully the other guy I asked was a real gem and really helped me out.

Back "In the day" We spent a lot of time talking about "Guided Discovery".

It can be hard for a presenter to present a session that fits the needs of everyone who is participating.

I have at times paired up someone who just doesn't get it with the person who can do it in his or her sleep.

Very often the training will provide the spark and the participant will once they realize that they need some help will look for resources or ask where the resources can be found.

Nearly all the Scouter's I know who are good in some area love nothing more than teaching or passing on their skills and know how to others.

A lot does at the end of the day come down to "The Lord helps those who help themselves".

It took me years as a Scout to become good with knots, lashings expecting someone to get it after a session at a course is not realistic.

 

I'm sure if there were some kind of test or exam after a training the people who passed would feel great. I think the people who didn't pass might feel that they were wasting their time and might quit.

Given enough time, the right resources and a person who wants to master a skill I do believe it can be mastered.

Eamonn.

[Oak Tree]

I recently attended Den Chief training with some of my new den chiefs. One of the boys was just stunned that there was no test, no proficiency demonstration, no nothing, that was required in order to get the Trained strip. Now, he's coming from a school environment where tests are a normal part of existence, and you don't get credit unless you pass. I was so used to this aspect of Scout training that I hadn't thought about it much for awhile, but I do think that if you wanted training to mean more, then requiring some test to be passed would be a reasonable idea.

 

I took IOLS and Scoutmaster-specific training, and those had to be two of the worst courses I've ever had the misfortune of sitting through. I couldn't figure out what they were trying to teach us. Were they teaching us basic skills that we could pick up with a glance at the book? Were they teaching us how to teach Scouts? (If so, they missed the mark entirely.) Most of us had been around Scouting for awhile, and all the material seemed geared at someone who had never heard of Scouts before. So you sit there, let them tell you a bunch of stuff that you already know or could read in the handbook yourself, and then, bam, you're trained. I would have been very happy for a pre-test that you could take and just place out of the course.

 

Training does provide some contacts, and it reinforces some ideas. I liked the Cub Scout training (NLE, YPT, Cub Scout position-specific). Troop Committee Challenge was reasonable. University of Scouting is usually pretty good.

 

But most non-Scouting courses that provide certification do require that you pass some type of exam at the end. I know what Eamonn means about discouraging those that don't pass - and I'm not sure what the overall effect would be - but I would lean toward having some type of test at the end (or the beginning).

[John-in-KC]

I'm an advocate of Instructional Systems Development as a training management methodology. In the Armed Forces, folks in the schoolhouses also know it as Systems Approach to Training. It's a modified form of Taylorism, where the environment is broken down into discrete tasks. It's an extremely flexible typology for training. It allows for individual study, classroom, controlled conditions, and full field conditions in developing mastery of the task.

 

From everything I've read and seen in the 9 years I've been on the Scouter side of the street, I do not have a clue of how National designs and develops training. From my perspective having held an Army Instructor additional skill identifier, it seems there has been minimal effort to identify student performance expectations. The major exception I have encountered is BSA Lifeguard. A lesser exception is WB21C (yes, I rate the quality of the BSA LG curriculum, as implemented in 2003, as better than WB21C implemented in 2005).

 

We pay lots of money to National... every member x $10 bucks is not chump change. In addition, as I understand it, there's a tax on the FOS campaign from National (either that or my finance director is cranking out the bull). Finally, National itself does fundraising at the major corporation level.

 

It seems to me the National training developers should explain why they waste perfectly good oxygen and funds to the volunteers in the field.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[BrentAllen]

If you don't like the quality of the training or testing at the district or council level, you can always supplement it at the unit level. I think the training available in our district and council is pretty good, but as was mentioned, there isn't much time for individual instruction or testing. Seeing that as a potential weakness, and recognizing how important it is for the SM (me) and our ASMs to be properly trained, I am copying a system used by one of our more successful troops.

 

To be an ASM, the candidate must attend all basic training. He/she will then complete the skills requirements for T-FC, which they need to know if they are going to supervise the older boys teaching the newer Scouts. The only other requirements I am adding are they must also be trained in CPR/AED, Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat . As our young troop gets a little larger, I will probably add First Aid to that requirement.

Skills to be learned to be an ASM:

T 1. Present yourself properly dressed and packed for a camping trip.

T 2. Spend one night on campout in tent you helped pitch

T 3. Help cook and clean up for a meal on campout

T 4. Whip and fuse end of rope

T 5. Tie two half hitches and taut-line hitch, and tell when they are used.

T 6. Demonstrate how to display, raise, lower and fold flag.

T 7. Repeat from memory Scout Oath, Law, motto, slogan.

T 9. Explain importance of buddy system

T 11. Identify local poisonous plants, tell how to treat for exposure to them.

T 12. Demonstrate care for choking

T 12b. Show first aid for the following: see list

2C 1. Compass and map work

2C 2. 5 mile hike with compass

2C 2a. Participate in 5 troop activities

2C 2b. Select camping site

2C 2c. Knife, ax, saw use

2C 2d. Use tools to prepare tinder, kindling, fuel

2C 2e. Discuss use of cooking fire and light-weight stove

2C 2f. Demonstrate how to light fire and stove

2C 2g. Cook one meal over on open fire

2C 4. Participate in service project

2C 5. Identify 10 kinds of wild animals found in community

2C 6a. Hurry case for stopped breathing, serious bleeding, ingested poison

2C 6b. Prepare personal first aid kit

2C 6c. Demonstrate first aid for following:

2C 7a. Precautions for safe swim

2C 7b. BSA swim test

2C 7c. Demonstrate water rescue methods

2C 8a. Participate in program on dangers of drugs, alcohol, tobacco

2C 8b. Explain 3 R's of personal safety

1C 1. Demonstrate how to find direction during day and night without compass

1C 2. 1 mile compass course

1C 4a. Plan a menu for campout. Discuss food pyramid.

1C 4b. Make a list showing cost and amounts.

1C 4c. Pans, utensils, other gear

1C 4d. Explain safe handling and storage of food

1C 5. Visit with public official

1C 6. Identify 10 kinds of native plants

1C. 7. Discuss lashings

1C 7b. Demonstrate timber hitch, clove hitch, different lashings.

1C 7c. Lash together a useful camp gadget

1C 8a. Demonstrate bowline

1C 8b. Bandages for sprained ankle, other injuries

1C 8c. Show how to transport from smoke-filled room, sprained ankle.

1C 8d. 5 signs of heart attack, CPR

1C 9a. Safety Afloat

1C 9b. Swim test

1C 9c. Line rescue

 

Some of these requirements the ASM-in-training will complete by attending with the boys (drug program, visit with public official). It will probably take about 6 months to complete all the requirements. I'm not asking the ASMs to do anything I haven't done myself. We currently have 2 ASMs-in-training, and we are having a lot of fun with the program. They enjoy learning the skills, just like the boys do. This also gives me and the other leaders plenty of time to see if the ASM-I-Ts are good at working with the boys, or would it be better for them to serve on the committee. Some of the requirements, like the cooking, are more about showing the leader what equipment the patrols have available and how they operate - not to see if he can cook a meal. They need to see how the patrols plan for, buy for and prepare for their meals.

Contrast this with a troop where a father walks in, signs up his son, is asked if he wants to be an ASM, fills out a registration form and is given a patch. The boys don't know the difference - they just see an adult in a uniform and think they know what they are doing.

Between the two methods above, which troop would you be more comfortable sending your son off on a camping trip with?

[Beavah]

Bravo, BA! I like that system, eh?

 

We've got the best system around for teaching kids and recognizing their abilities, growin' 'em from novices to great leaders at their own pace. Scouting!

 

I've always wondered why we don't just use the same system (with adult-level additions) for trainin' new scouters, instead of this lecture/seat time trainin'.

 

A scouter who can't do T-2-1 stuff in his sleep shouldn't be out in the woods with boys. And we should encourage Scouters to get "proficiency awards" / MBs in required and elective areas too, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

B and BA,

 

Great task/standard matrix! It's at least a viable attempt to define "what right looks like!" It also underscores a point used much in military training: You have to be technically competent and tactically proficient before you can share the skills with others.

 

 

[eisely]

I have been involved as a trainer in the OLS syllabus since it first came out. One of my motivations for volunteering to be a trainer was my dissatisfaction with the training that I attended earlier in my career as a volunteer.

 

We run a fairly high powered course. We maximize the hands on aspect. I do map & compass and I give them maps to orient. I have them take a bearing where the answer is obvious. We also run a small orienteering course with a bona fide orienteering map.

 

When I teach axe safety I offer the trainees the opportunity to split a piece of wood. Those who are comfortable with their skills usually pass and those who may have never touched an axe take me up on the offer.

 

Likewise with liquid fuel backpacking stoves. The trainees actually get an opportuntiy to check out and fire up a stove.

 

The trainees also get hands on experience in foil cooking, knots, first aid, and plant and animal ID.

 

Our course is unusual because we have three districts offer the training jointly. This enables us to put more resources into the training. Our typical group going through is about 50 scouters twice a year.

 

Just going through the syllabus is not sufficient. One has to figure out creative ways to set up hands on exercises.