Lost Webelos

[Bob White]

I totally agree with you Ed that it is a two way street. I just believe that up until they are ready to crossover, Troops are perfectly willing to make the Packs do all the driving.

 

Bob White

[sst3rd]

I agree with everything being said. There are many variables in a Pack/Troop relationship. Our Pack is now down to one Scout. He recently received his Arrow Of Light, and since there is no Pack to meet with, I'm trying to get him and his Mom (only parent) to visit our Troop. The long time Lady Cub Leader has finally driven our Pack into the ground. Late for meetings if she bothers to show up at all, she's trained, but only shows up when it suits her. The September School Night for Scouting was a raging success for our Council, but our Pack gained no one, because this Lady Cub Leader screwed up the dates. I wish (I'm the Scoutmaster) I had the problems you folks are having. We have a great program, and I guarantee you, we'd keep all of the graduating Webolos Scouts, except those that truly wouldn't like the Troop Scouting program. We're pushing the COR to reorganize the Pack, but he is reluctant to "release" this woman because she's the only one trained. I tried to tell him, that as long as she's there, everyone else will simply be happy to let her do the work, and then complain when she doesn't show up for meetings. Then they go home never to be seen again. I told our COR, that she's the REASON we're in this sad state. Our Troop always had great "two-way" relationships with our Pack but I can't run the Pack for them!!!!

 

sst3rd

[mk9750]

Great topic, and one that we have focused on in our troop for years now.

Bob, I agree in principle that the troop has the bigger responsiblity for enticing boys to cross. However, I believe our troop may be a worthwhile study of that concept.

We are on of 3 area troops that tend to get boys for 6 packs. Of that combination, only our Charter Organization has both a pack and a troop. We put on THE EXACT SAME recruiting effort EVERY YEAR. We then monitor the number of boys that cross to each of the three troops. The other two get almost the same percentage as each other, and from year to year, @ 10% of the 2nd year Webelos each. Their numbers vary little from year to year. Out Troop has crossed and retained (measured by recharters after the first 8 months - crossing in spring, recharter in January) from as few as 50% of the rest, to 94%.

If the other troops recruitment stays constant, and our troop's efforts stay the same year to year, why is there such a difference in results?

We are certain we've identified three issues, with one additional that we as adults in our troop disagree about:

1) lack of preperation by both parents and den leaders about the difference between boy scouts and cub scouts, particularly the personal responsiblity increase that happens with crossing. The evidence we have suggests that those dens that have a boy who has an older brother in boy scouts cross more boys than those that do not. This percentage increases when the leader has a boy in a troop.

2) The attitude that we see often that says " OK, we crossed. See you in September, just like in Cubs". It seems that many families just don't understand the year round nature of the boy scout program. Again, this is effected by having a brother or a son in a troop. For some reason, and we can't determine why, it soesn't seem to matter whether or not the den had a den chief. Which brings me to:

3) Lack of a den chief. And this, at least in our area, we lay directly at the feet of the pack leadership. Our resources only allow us to provide den chiefs for 2nd year webelos dens, but every 2nd year weblo leader is contacted to offer a dc, and explain their purpose and value. Boys seem to cross at a much higher rate from dens with den chiefs than without (22% to our troop from dens w/o to 65% to our troop from dens with a den chief).

And lastly, we see a variation in crossing and retention every other year. I believe it is our chosen summer camp program. In odd years, we go out of state, but within 160 miles of home for summer camp. In even years, we go to Canada, and 350 miles, for summer camp. Our cross over rate drops in even years. I believe it is caused by our decision (which, by the way, I agree with) to go to Canada for summer camp. We have a significant number of parents (sorry to stereotype, but it's almost ALWAYS moms) who don't want Joey out of the country so far away from home when he's only 11. There are other leaders in our troop who don't believe this correlation exists.

Sorry this is so long. But I think it may help with the research. As far as Bob and Ed go, like I said, on paper, it seems Bob should be right. But on this one, our evidence suggests that Ed is closer to the answer.

Good luck on your paper!

Mark

[scoutmom]

Here's my $.02 worth:

 

From my experience, there has not been a troop (3 in our town) that has approached anyone in our Pack regarding Webelos transition in the last 3 years. I have personally requested a den chief from 2 of the Troops and have been told repeatedly that there is no one available. (They're too busy with sports and band and other activities) We currently have a den of 13 second year Webelos who will be ready to cross over in Feburuary (maybe!) and we have visited one of those troops. That was done last spring and our Webelos Leaders initiated that contact and it could not have been a more boring meeting. Boy run? Not in my eyes.

 

As far as Ed Mori's assertion that the Pack doesn't fully prepare the boys for Scouting, I can sort of agree with that. However, the Packs are not trained to deliver a Boy Scout Program. We are trained to deliver a Cub Scout Program. Without a open stream of communication between the Pack and the Troop, Webelos transition is going to be culture shock. I know my son and the other boys in his den are not ready for Boy Scouts. I am not a Boy Scout Leader, so I am at a loss as to how to prepare them better. Our Webelos Leaders and I (Cubmaster) have made efforts to build a relationship with the Troops in our area, but the attitude seems to be that if we want to join Boy Scouts, we know where to find them.

 

Personally, I have considered taking my son to a troop in another town who's Scoutmaster actually invited us to join his troop! I plan on leaving the decision on where to join up to my son. Afterall, he'll be the Boy Scout, not me. I will give him my opinion, though.

[mk9750]

scoutmom,

 

It wouldn't be a shock to me that if we had people running cub packs in our area that have your attitude, we'd cross and keep more boys. I'd love to have someone at the pack level be as up to speed about the transition as you are. I believe if you had a troop in your area like ours, who truly bend over backward to accomodate webelos for den chiefs, requirements for meeting visits and activities, and making them feel welcome, you'd get more boys crossing. (boy wouldn't I be embarassed if we were in the same town, huh?)

After reading your post, I went pack to confirm this, so I am 100% accurate. Our Scoutmaster CCs me on every e mail and written correspondense he makes that pertains to the troop. He wrote an original e mail back in August to each of the six cubmasters in our area, and to each of the 11 2nd year webelos den leaders in those packs. Asked for an invitation to the pack's first fall committe meeting, offered den chiefs, offered static displays at pack meetings, offered invitations to troop meetings and campouts, and ANY type off assistance we can be. Not one response. He resent the e mail again in early September. No response again. Made phone calls to the cubmasters asking if leadership had changed to see if he needed to direct correspondence to someone different. When he had everything up to date (only one change), sent another e mail and letter. One response from a cubmaster who complained that we were working too hard to recruit, and to stop bother them until winter. Sent the e mail again, including an apology if it looked like were were being pushy, but that this was an important issue if the den, pack and troop were serious about crossing boys to boy scouts. One response, from a 2nd years webelos leader who said no to our offers, except to tell us that his younger son's tiger cub group might really be able to us a den chief, because none of the other adults seem to want to be involved.

I admire your effort, desire and dedication to helping boys take the next step. I am also envious of the troops in your area. If we had one person in each of the packs we deal with that had your attitide, our troop would be splitting walls in our meeting area. In our case, we believe we are doing well more than we should, and close to everything we can, to extend a welcoming hand to cubs and their parents. If someone would just grab it...

Mark

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

I have done a long study on this and the large problem is bored Webelos. I found that Webelos who enjoyed their den program and den leader relate that positive experience to future scouting, while Webelos in a boring dens relate that to troops and want to quit as soon as they can. I also found that Webelos don't have to camp or model a Patrol to have fun, it base more from a fun they have at their meetings and a positive attitude from the den leader.

 

There are several reasons for this problem, but by far the largest is leader burn out. No matter if its the church, little league sports or scouting, the average voluntier usually burns out after three years. Take that average and look at the tired Bear leader who opens the Webelos book and finds that the program encourages camping in possibly cold or hot weather, sleep on the hard ground, cook on a fire or camp stove, hike in a bug infested wilderness and learning boy scout knots to teach the Webelos. Most Bear leaders are female who don't have a youth experience in the above skills. Many of these leaders find replacments, but many do not.

 

There are several ways to attack this problem, but I learned the hard way not creat programs for all the dens when you just want to find and help the few. I beleive the best approach is train the Comissioners to monitor the Webelos dens and identify the weak ones. There are several ways to measure the performance of a Webelos den, but the boring ones stand out. Once a weak den is identified, then find a SM or Troop that will take the den under it's wing an help the den leader give a fun program. This can be done by helping teach a few Activity Badges and maybe attend a few activities. I advise against turning the den into a patrol type den because this could hurt the boys first year troop experience. But helping with knots, cooking and outdoor activities would help the burned out leader a lot, not to mention expose the scouts and their families to the fun in a troop.

 

There are a lot of other ideas we can come up with, but my point on this thread is the majority of Webelos who don't cross over are from boring dens. I beleive a district could improve cross overs by at least 25 to 30% in three years when they monitor the dens.

 

I also found that Districts that monitor there cubs have a much higher cross over rate. I don't think we should blame the cub or troop program for this problem, Cub Scouts is a long hard program. Someone mentioned the Girl Scouts seem to do better at cross overs. I looked at this and also found it to be true. If you look at their program however, you find they cross over their scouts to the next level in three years or less. If I were to make a proposal to the BSA to fix this problem, it would be to seperate the Tiger program and start it at the age of five and keep the boys in that program for two years, then cross over to Pack. This is what the Girl Scouts basically do. This would solve other problems as well.

 

I hope this helps the discussion.

 

I love this Scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[ScoutNut]

From all of the replies it looks like the problem can be caused by BOTH Packs and Troops! And I believe that National's concept of keeping Cub Scouts and Boy Scout events totally separate has not helped. I know that they are trying to create a aura of mystery and anticipation around Boy Scouting for the Cubs. But what has happened is that your average Cub Scout has no clue about Boy Scouts and does not feel any connection to them!!

 

In my area, the Troops do not seem to be in regular contact with the Packs. They seem to have the we're here if you want us mentality. Likewise the Packs do not regularly contact the Troops, aside from Webelos, either. I am sure that both might feel unwelcomed by the other when the real problem might just be communication!

 

In my Pack, we have ASM's judge our PWD every year. We also invite all of our Troop's leadership to B&G each year. Usually they do not come. Our SM seems to want as little to do with Cubs as possible. For the last 3 years he has not even shown up at the crossover ceremony! The year before last no one from the Troop showed up at all. Our Unit Commissioner was nice enough to welcome the boys into the Troop. Last year one of the ASM's was there. The Cubs usually only see the Boys at Thanksgiving mass and at Scout Sunday.

 

Den Chiefs. From what I've seen, our SM MIGHT ask the Troop at the first meeting if anyone is interested. It all depends on if one of the boys has expressed intrest first. He definately does NOT push it. The Pack leaders, as a rule, do not know about Den Chiefs. As was stated, this is a TROOP position and is usually only mentioned in passing in Cub Scout literature and at Cub Scout training. My Pack has 2 Den Chiefs only because I noticed the training listed on our Council website. I asked my son if he would be interested and he proceded to pay for the training himself! He then convinced his classmate, who was helping his mom with his little brother's den anyway, to take the training also. The Cubs love them!

 

So, I feel that there is enough "blame" for not retaining Webelos to go around to everybody! Get the Cubs and the Troops together more often for more stuff. All levels. Part of the Boys leadership can be running Cub events! The Cubs need to see the Boys. The Cubs need to get to know the Boys. The Cubs need to want to BE the Boys!! You notice I have been saying Cubs NOT JUST Webelos. This needs to be an ongoing process. Not something that only starts in 4th or 5th grade!

 

Just my $.02!

[scoutmom]

mk9750 - don't worry, we're not in the same town! I'm in Southern NJ. I wish I had a Troop locally that made the kind of contact you troop has! I guess in a perfect world we would all have everything exactly the way we want it!

 

I also agree with eagledad that Leader burn-out is a big issue. I've been there and it really saps youe enthusiasm when you feel you are working harder for the Cubs to advance than the boys are working.

 

And I think ScoutNut has a good point when he encourages more interaction between the Troops and Packs. I would love to have the Boy Scouts participate in some of our activities and vice versa. I'm just tired of begging. It almost puts me off scouting completely, but then I see Leaders from other towns and other areas in our district and I realize, not everyone has the same attitude.

 

My perfect Scouting World: Packs and Troops working together for the best interest of the Scouts; Boy Scouts interested in and excited about helping Cub Scouts transition and sharing their own love of Scouting; Leaders who respect one another, including their differences; and last but not least, parents who willingly volunteer to help so that I don't feel like I'm responsible for everything!

 

I can dream, can't I??

[sst3rd]

Again, I wish I had these problems. Our Pack is now nonexistent. I meet (I'm the SM) each week with our COR in the empty Scout building during what used to be the Pack meeting. I keep asking him what he plans to do, and that I and the Troop will support his decisions. But, nothing ever happens. We're now headed toward the fourth cycle of graduations, with no Pack.

 

I'm still listening to you guys. I like the validation and ideas. I can dream too..........

[Coffee Lady]

Here is one definite reason!

----------------------------------------

Why would the people who I have worked with for the last seven years of my life make me ashamed of them tonight? The new pack Leaders were never told about anyone being left over from the previous pack....hence my son was forgotten. I do not blame the new people aka Leaders only those who told them there weren't anyone else from the old pack! Then tonight, I was explaining how the Committee made up of Leaders parents treasurer, decide on what the pack is doing aka a Christmas Party! At first, I was misunderstood. They believed that I was telling them we are separate from Council, Boy Scouts and other Packs! Finally, and hopefully explained it to where the leaders parents meet to decide on what the pack is doing for that month. These new people have no clue all that is done for the Pack which to say isn't their fault yet I am told not to help them Because no one wants to work with me! That is fine.....if someone would step in and help the new people. Yet my son, who has been waiting to get his awards for soon he will joining a troop heard all this. He said "Mom, they treated you like you were the dirt and they were the broom!" I never in my life felt so ashamed for what others has caused my son to feel. I tried to contact other people who are in charge and I got no where. Instead the very ones I didn't want to discuss anything with were the very ones that the Person who shall not be named sent to talk to me. I just told my son to write a letter so that I may send it to Council! Or would anyone like to give me advice since those Who are of no help have done this injustice to my son? What does a parent do or say? For this isn't what Scouting is about or I have been misled for the last seven years of my life! Thank you! Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Bob White]

mk9750,

Sorry to take so long getting back to you, it has been a hectic week.

 

By your figures, from the three packs you are crossing over 60 to 100 percent of the Webelos from 6 packs. By National average you are way ahead of the game. Many districts are not having that success.

You point out some of the same problems that Ed does and my answer is the same. Teaching cubs and their families the difference between Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts is not the job of the pack leaders, that is the troop's responsibility. They know Cub Scouting, you know Boy Scouting. They are busy putting on the cub program. It is the troop leader's responsibility to sell the Boy Scout program. The same with Den Chiefs.

 

 

Don't think that a flurry of mailing and phone calls will do the job either. Recruiting Webelos, placing Den Chiefs, interacting with Packs, requires building relationships, and that is only accomplished with repeated face-to-face contact.

 

Relationships depend on trust and comfort and you cannot do that without going to see that person and getting to know each other.

 

Bob White

 

 

[mk9750]

Bob,

Just to clarify-

There are three TROOPS in the area that draw from 6 PACKS. Two of the troops get @ 20% of the crossovers between them. That leaves 80% of eleigible boys, from whom we get between 50% to 94% to stay will us through rechartering (these stats are from 1996 through present, and I am counting all boys in our troop today as being with us next January for rechartering). Not a big deal, but I just wanted to make sure no one thought we are doing the impossible.

Again, in theory, what you say is correct. It is not likely that cub leaders will know, understand, and promote boy scouts (although it can happen - I went out of my way as a webelos leader to work with troop leadership during the summer between 1st and 2nd year, and all though 2nd year to learn what I needed to know, and get the troop involved to fill in what I couldn't). But in practice, it still takes being invited to allow the troop to do so. E amils and phone calls arent't the best method for making everything happen, for certain. But somehow the first contact has to be made. I'm rather certain you wouldn't advocate attending a pack committee meeting or a den meeting univited.

I also failed to mention the effort that has gone into contacting pack people at round table. But these don't start until late September. The way we envision providing help requires that this be arranged and organized well before Sept. or Oct.

I recall as a den leader and as a cubmaster feeling that if everyone just left our pack alone, we could run a quality program. I think most here would agree that that view was very myopic. What we as a troop are trying to do is overcome the same attiude I had. Fortunately, my lack of skills (and interest, at the time) in outdoor activities MADE me contact the experts (the troop). Had I thought I knew enough, or that I could do a satisfactory job for the boys in my den on my own, My den could have been one of the ones that faded to black in scouting. Instead, and I say this with unabashed pride, 10 of 11 boys crossed, 8 made it to First Class, 4 are still in Scouting, 2 are Eagles, and one more, my son, mailed his application two days ago. I won't believe this would have happened if someone at the cub level hadn't looked for, and accepted the help available from the troop.

On paper, you are 100% right. In practice, at least in my corner of the scouting world, it doesn't work like that. The troop has to be asked to participate. If I try to imagine what it would be like for the troop to insert themselves into a pack that doesn't want them and doesn't understand they need them, it looks like the selective service draft to me.

To everyone who has responded, it is wonderful to see how this has developed. Often on this forum, a problem to be discussed exists only at the pack or at the troop level. And only one perspective (cub scout or boy scout) is available. It's cool to see oppinions from both levels shared. Without each of us understanding the difficulties the other faces, it's hard to pinpoint the solution.

Good luck to all in their Scouting efforts!!

Mark

[SR540Beaver]

I know this is unrealistic and would never happen, but wouldn't it be great if chartering organizations were required to have both Cubs and Boy Scouts? They would have a much better chance for interaction and possibly increase their crossover rates. We have a Den Chief who shows up for about half the den meetings, sits in a chair and hands out snacks at the end of the meeting. I've got a hunch that the majority of our Webelos 1's will drop out after next year. Perhaps if the church who sponsors us had a Boy Scout troop too and they met at the same location, the boys would have an idea of what Boy Scouts is about and want to be a part of it.

[Bob White]

Pack meetings are opem to the public. If I wanted to start a relationship with a pack I would arrive a few minutes early for a pack meeting. Introduce myself around to the leaders, offer to help set up, say I woulld like to stay and watch the meeting, then help with the claen-up. Meet the Webelos leader and say "I really enjoyed your meeting, We'd like for you to come to one of ours, how about next month?" Approach den leaders and discuss the value and use of Den Chiefs. Ask for a list of the Webelos families so that the troop can mail them an infonmation folder about Boy Scouts and the troop you serve.

 

The only difference between the program thats on paper, and what works in real life, is taking time to work the program.

[mk9750]

Bob,

Now your starting to rile me!

It's not my time spent making the effort to contact cub packs, so I don't want to sound like I'm defending myself. It is our Scoutmaster's.

But to depict the right way to make this happen taking the time to do it, and contrasting that to what we do is just not fair! I have never kept track of the time we spend making this effort (and as you can see, I certainly keep track of a lot of stuff!), but I'll bet our Scoutmaster's time spent recruiting, when totaled, adds up to days, not hours, each year. And, in reality, I think our performance shows that.

My point throughout this thread has been that rather than being a help in the process of transistion to boy scouts, packs put up a brick wall (mostly unintentional, I 'm sure, but real, none the less, at least for the 6 packs in our area). And 7 years of trying to change attitides within the pack have met with almost no sucess. This is problably for a very reasonable reason: Pack leadership turns over at a much greater rate than does most troops', and ours particularly (SM there 11 years, one ASM celebrating 20 years, another 10 years. I'm one of the young bucks among adults with 7 years). I think another reason packs make it tough, without even knowing it, is that we (training, we in the troop, unit commisioners) haven't made clear enough that transistion to boy scouts is one of the job descriptions of pack leaders. Without them knowing this, a cubmaster and a den leader believe that AoL and a graduation ceremony shows that their job is complete. It's not the time or the effort that makes this tranisition difficult. If it were easy for troops to recruit well, everyone would do it.

If the packs in your area are receptive to the efforts your troops make to recuit, congratulations. And if it's just the ones in our area that aren't, well, we'll deal with it. But please don't portray how we deal with things as not putting in the effort. I am offended!

And, by the way, this is strictly my oppinion, but I was always skeptical of people representing other scouting units being at the pack meetings I did as cubmaster without arranging it in advance. If the unit commisioner, or DE, or a scoutmaster, or another cubmaster wanted to come to a pack meeting, WELCOME! But to show up without notice made me very uncomfortable. I think it is rude to show up unannounced. I won't do it, and I'll bet our scoutmaster wouldn't, either.

Mark