Do we(as Scouters) trust that other Scouters are trying to do their best?

[Gunny2862]

If other Scouters won't believe that we aren't trying to be the best leaders we can be then why would we expect the general public to think so?

 

Does anyone on this forum really believe that the Scouters who volunteer to give up their own time to be Scoutmasters, Assistant Scoutmasters, Various Committee members, various Commissioner posts are not trying to do their best? And included in that are not wholly ignorant or grossly incompetent?

 

That the majority of those on this forum(if clearly not those in Scouting as a whole by Nationals own numbers) are seeking and completing BSA training and via this forum trying to find out what works for others or get access to perspectives we may never get from our immediate associates.

 

If we do believe others are trying to do their best then why do some of us spend so much time insulting our fellow Scouters and impugning their motives or training instead of giving usable advice the occasional kind word after a tough problem, or giving resource information?

 

Even if one chooses to quote a resource it can be done without implying that the Scouter has been willfully violating it. I can certainly be accused of ignorance of things in the BSA, but I'm not usually stupid. (Not saying that can't occur )

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Do your best? That's an interesting idea. On the conservative side, I'd say that most are well intentioned but less than half "do their best."

 

The SM that I met at summer camp who wasn't coming back to that camp because "the boys had too much fun." Yep, too much fun. "Summer camp is not to have fun but to work on merit badges and this camp doesn't offer enough Eagle required badges."

 

The SMs that appoint the SPL and/or PLs.

 

The parents that insist on packing their sons' packs.

 

The Scouters who say, "We have to run these boys through x,y, or z so they can be Tenderfoot before school's out."

 

The Scouters who say, "What do the rules matter, the kids are supposed to be having a good time."

 

The Cub Scouters who hand out the AOL, earned or not, just so "Johnny won't feel bad."

 

The District Chair who used to position to arm-twist the Eagle Board into passing her son. He's the one who told me this and at age 25 he still doesn't feel that he earned his Eagle.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Do I think other Scouters do their "best"...that's not for me to judge. I don't know what their "best" is. I think most Volunteers come to the table and say "this is what I'm willing to give"...and we have to take it or leave it. If it doesn't get the job done, or doesn't meet someone else's higher standards, then we can find someone else. In my scouting career, as well as in my professional career, I try to identify a person's strengths and then capitalize on them. I recognize their weaknesses (or what they are "not willing" to do), and avoid those areas. As an end result, I usually find that "everyone can do something" to contribute to the mission.

[GMitch]

Good topic, and some good posts already. I think people have varying degress of understanding of what it takes for a program to be successful, varying skill sets, and various levels of commitment to their position. I also think that each have a different set of priorities in their lives, and have different individual reasons for being involved in BSA. Each situation is uniquely different.

 

As a COR, I sat down with 4 of the 5 Pack Committee members the other day because I am having a tough time getting the new Chairman to set a date for an actual Committee Meeting. As I started to discuss an upcoming NLE/LS Training,and some other key dates, one of them mentioned that I may not have the right people for the job. I think we do, I just think they haven't quite caught fire yet with scouting spirit. This is the same bunch that cannot seem to ever make it to a Roundtable meeting either. However, I'm not going to judge them and say they aren't doing their best. One is a mother of 5 kids all under age 9, another owns a high demand business, another has challenges with the recent loss of an adult child, and a special needs grandaughter. These folks just have a lot going on in their lives, and as a leader I am sensitive to that. Do I wish the CS program would move along better in our unit? Yes! Have we made progress under the leadership of these people? A resounding yes! When they started the boys were not wearing uniforms, advancement was not being tracked, the former Cubmaster was seldom two-deep etc. We are resolving issues one at a time, and the program is progressing, albeit not as fast as I personally would like. I have the same challenges with my Troop, but also the same small nuggests of success that I must be thankful for. As long as we are going the right direction, I can be content, even if the people are not as gung-ho as we might like them to be, and things are not moving as fast as we would hope. I think one of the greatest attributes a Scouter can have is patience, and that is tough to develop, but absolutely essential. There does however at the same time need to be encouragement with a sense of urgency, as time really moves quickly and these boys will be adults before we know it.

[Bob White]

You ask one question in your title of the thread and an entirely different question in the body of the post. I will attem,pt to answer both.

 

Do I trust that other scouters are trying to do their best?

No. I hope they will do their best, I would expect them to do their best. But I cannot trust them to do their best until I have some knowledge of their abilities to base that trust on.

 

Now in the body of the post you do not talk about this. You ask an entirley different question.

Do I really believe that the Scouters who volunteer to give up their own time to be Scoutmasters, Assistant Scoutmasters, Various Committee members, various Commissioner posts are not trying to do their best?

 

Sometimes yes. When a Scoutleader chooses to not follow the program they cannot lay claim to "doing their best". When a SCouter chooses to ingore the rules that protect the scout they cannot clain that they are "doing their best". When a leader knows the right thing to do but does what is personally expediant thay cannot say that they are "doing their best".

 

People become Scout leaders for all kinds of reasons, many of the reasons are very good, many of the reasons as far as scouts and scoutihg are concerned, are very bad. It wpould be naive to think that every single person becomes a scout leader for all the right reasons.

 

"And included in that are not wholly ignorant or grossly incompetent?"

 

Are their wholly ignorant and incompetent leaders? Absolutely, because committees and CRs do not always "do their best" in selecting unit leaders. Let's be realistic here, there are 1.2 million adult scouters. You cannot possibly believe that there are no incompetent leaders among them. It is statistically impossible for there not to be.

 

There are many, many, many scouters who do their best to deliver a quality scouting program. There are also many scouters who do their best to be able to do whatever they want dressed in Scout uniforms.

 

[Beavah]

I think most scouters are dandy people. It takes great love and commitment to give up your time and $ for other people's kids. And that's what we all do, eh?

 

So me, I begin by trusting fellow Scouters. Like many leaders we all have egos that we sometimes need others to see past, so I try to see past 'em and hope they'll do the same for me. There are some who take me a while to figure out. But dat's just humanity, eh? Even the best of folks think different and have to get used to each other.

 

I have been disappointed by fellow Scouters only on the rarest of occasions. Most fellow scouters I run into across da nation and world are almost instant friends.

 

That doesn't mean they all have equal abilities or the same talents. Far from it. How borin' would that be anyway? We all do better than others at some things and worse than others at other things. Some are great mentors, some great organizers, some boisterous, some quiet, some make Uniform Method hum and others make Outdoor Method sing. And many are just tryin' to figure out how to put da pieces together.

 

I think the best troops play to the talents of their leaders, both youth and adult. Because the people are different, there are going to be differences in programs, and differences within da same program over time as people change. That's all to the good. Where troops run astray is when one strong-willed type holds on to what he or she used to do, and doesn't recognize that the kids and other adults have changed. Where districts run astray is when a strong-willed character from one unit starts to think every other unit should do things his/her way. We meet people where they're at, not where they, or we, were.

 

All of us are doin' good work. And all of us can learn things and do better. What's fun is sharin' that adventure.

 

Yah, I think I've got a problem with language, though. When I hear the word "follow", I think of a willing choice to follow a human leader whom I trust, eh? I would follow almost all fellow Scouters in their units.

 

But I don't know that there's any way to follow a program, because a program doesn't lead. A program is a resource. It's a tool. To me, it's something we use, not something we follow. Not unless we're a computer, anyway! And at least for the present time, despite all da advances in video games, I don't think a computer that just follows it's program can do for kids what real, human, leaders can do for kids. Not even close.

 

We shouldn't strive to be machines executing programmed instructions, eh? We should be people, using our different personal talents to give what we can to da children we meet. If we do that well, we may all use the same program resources and share in the same movement, but we'll build packs and troops and teams and crews that are different.

 

Fact is, every time I meet a new Scouter and friend, I learn some new way of doing things or thinking about what we do for kids. That's the beauty of Scoutin'.

 

And if yeh haven't done a lot of international Scouting, I would recommend it to anyone. Hundreds of different program resources. One common fellowship of good people who care for kids. Ain't the program materials that does it.

 

It's da people.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

I think most of us try to do our best. I also think there are those adults who sign up who have no intention of attending any training & just doing it their way, but I believe these are in the minority. Yeah we here a lot about units who are so far off you would think they were Girl Scouts but not about the ones who are right on the money. Why? Because the ones who are out in left field are the ones who make headlines!

 

If you don't trust that other Scouters are trying their best then maybe the problem is not with the other Scouters.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

To trust anyone whose skills, backgrounds, methods, personalities, and abilities are unknown is dangerous and naive. To trust them with your children is irresponsible.

 

Trust has to have some foundation of credibility.

[Beavah]

So I trust you were a home schooler then, BobWhite? And not a member of any organized religion?

 

Just joshin' with yeh. I think there's a time for "trust but verify" as well. But there's also a time for faith.

 

B

 

[evmori]

To trust anyone whose skills, backgrounds, methods, personalities, and abilities are unknown is dangerous and naive. To trust them with your children is irresponsible.

 

Trust has to have some foundation of credibility.

 

Yep trust should have credibility. But making a blanket statement that you don't trust an adult leader to do their best is more of a reflection of the person making the statement than anything.

 

Do we trust our kids to do the right thing? I know I do. Do they always? Nope. But they need to be given the chance.

 

No one is saying to let a couple of adult leaders you have never met take the Scouts in your unit across country. Trust them with something in the unit & see how they handle it.

 

A Scout is trustworthy & if we as adults don't help model that, how are the Scouts in our units going to learn it.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I have faith in God, but I am not going to entrust my son to just anyone who walks up to me and claims to be Him.

 

Trust requires some knowledge of the person. Trust comes from a relationship. Gunny only refers to trust ion the title and then never brings it up again.

 

He spends the rest of the post asking if we believe some leaders do not try to do their best. Of course there are. We see posts here all the time of people who say they know the scouting program but don't use it. You cannot say that they are doing their "best". They are doing what they want to do, and that is not autoimatically the best they can do, it is simply what they choose to do.

 

A leader with ample opportunity to attend training who chooses not to go is not doing their best. A Leader who goes but chooses not to employ what they learbed at the training cannot honestly say they are doing their best.

 

I never said that I do not trust ANY adult leader to do there best. I said that I don't trust ALL adult leaders to do their best.

 

I don't know what point Ed is trying to argue but it does not seem related to anything Gunny asked about.

[evmori]

Do I trust that other scouters are trying to do their best?

No. I hope they will do their best, I would expect them to do their best. But I cannot trust them to do their best until I have some knowledge of their abilities to base that trust on.

 

Sounds pretty all inclusive to me.

 

I think when most adults sign up they have the best intentions to be good leaders at heart. And I think most do end up becoming good and trustworthy leaders. The one thing that I think we forget is being the best leader a person can be varies from person to person. Just like intelligence. Everyone has a different intelligence level. So, expecting a leader to give the same commitment as another is not fair to either and very narrow minded thinking. Sure trust is to be earned. But not everyone will earn the same level of trust. And that's OK.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Stosh]

I view trust a little different than having to be earned.

 

Trust is given and remains in tact until the individual provides evidence that he/she is not to be trusted. If every scout and scouter promises to live by the Scout Laws, surely trustworthy leads the list and the benefit of the doubt is given until proven otherwise. To assume differently may mean a breech of the Scout Law itself.

 

From the subject line of this thread it implies that there is a possibility that those around us aren't trying to live up to the Scout Law. I'm kinda troubled by that implication.

 

Maybe it's the root cause as to why adults can't trust the boys to run their own program too, or trust them with diligent use of ax and knife, etc. etc. etc. There's a problem with having to earn trust, it implies the other person must earn something before given an opportunity. On the other hand, I give opportunities and then trust the boys to follow through. This works just as well with other adults. I've been following this pattern now for about 30 years of youth work and I haven't been disappointed very often. Maybe that's why Trustworthy leads the list of Scout Laws.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Trust is given and remains in tact until the individual provides evidence that he/she is not to be trusted.

 

Gotta agree with jblake here, especially in online communities. Online we don't have any opportunity to have a real relationship, or to assess "skills, backgrounds, methods, personalities, and abilities." So that would leave us not trustin' anybody at all, or assumin' they're all molesting kids or otherwise harming youth or the movement. Just doesn't seem reasonable.

 

Over da years, I trusted my kids to all sorts of people. Teachers especially. I didn't have a "relationship" with da teachers ahead of time, and even if I could have assessed their skills by sittin' in the class for a month the previous year, I wouldn't have had all that much influence on who my kids were assigned to. Same with coaches, youth ministers, neighbors, my kids' friends. I've also trusted Mrs. Beavah's knitting buddies, the new doc I started seein' after my old doc retired, the neighbors next door, and da guy who sold me my truck.

 

Generally speakin', sure seems like we trust people first, and then build a relationship that either deepens that trust or calls it into question.

 

Beavah

[Eamonn]

Maybe I need to get a life?

But I was discussing this thread at work the other day!!

I tend to be a trusting sort of fellow.

I tend to agree with what Beavah and jblake47

have posted.

Without wishing to seem unfair.

I do know what the "Book" says.

If all of our adult leaders were really selected and hand picked by whoever does the selecting. (CO? Committee? Executive Board?) There might be more of a background of trust.

Of course in the real world, in a lot of cases we know that just about any warm body is allowed to fill a position that needs filled.

I'm not sure if trust is the right word?

I think maybe we hope that people will do what they say they are going to do -Trusting that they will until they prove us right or wrong.

Had a situation pop up the other week.

A husband and wife team, who had done a really great job working as Cub-scouter's moved to a Troop.

This left the Pack without a Cubmaster.

The pack is one of the bigger Packs in our area with about 70 Cub Scouts.

The CO is listed as being a Mother's Club.

It is real!! Bad thing is that the "Mother's" are all now in their 80's.

They still want the Pack to do well and continue, but don't really know what is going on.

A meeting was held and two people (another husband and wife team) volunteered and were selected (They were the only volunteers!!)

The next day both the DE and myself received phone calls from the outgoing Cubmasters wife.

She was very unhappy about the new leadership.

It seems in the past there have been issues between these people.

On the phone this Lady went on to me about how these people are not trained and are never going to get trained along with some past "Sins"!

She very clearly doesn't trust this new leadership team.

Trying to be as diplomatic as I could be?? I very nicely let her know that like it or not the District played no part in who was selected to be the new Cubmaster and the role of the District was to offer help and support.

The District doesn't have any way of knowing what people will do or won't do. Also in as nice a way as I could I told her that it was time she let go of the Pack and worked with the Troop.

As to "Do we(as Scouters) trust that other Scouters are trying to do their best?

I think we do.

I'm not sure if we (We being the CO or whoever they are supposed to be serving.)do as good a job of holding them accountable as maybe we could do?

Eamonn.