People Who Are WB Trained Dont Put It To Use

[Bob White]

Being a Scouter for 20 years is no guarantee that you will be a scouter for 21 years. Like an old water heater an old scouter can work great one day and have his bottom rust out the next and leak all over the floor.

 

I would rather train a good leader to be a better one than try to change an older leader's ways.

[Kudu]

Joni4TA writes:

 

"I am not a direct contact leader; I have always functioned on the committee. I took Scoutmaster training 4 years ago just so I could understand better, what the SM's function in a Troop was supposed to be, so that I could serve my unit better by supporting them."

 

Thank you for your service to Scouting!

 

Joni4TA's pro-action is why I don't buy the decision to dumb down Wood Badge for the sake of Committee Members and other indoor administrators. The Wood Badge should indicate that its wearer understands the Boy Scout program by actually camping at least 100 yards from the nearest Patrol (our WB Patrols were 1/4 to 3/4 mile apart), cooking every meal over a wood fire, and otherwise surviving the baptism of full immersion in the Patrol Method if only for one week in is or her life.

 

Joni4TA writes:

 

"my husband was WB trained in the early 1990's and has given me his course material and explained/taught me as best he can, what the gist of the experience was for him. I accepted this teaching, but WB has apparently changed A LOT since he went through it."

 

I would make a distinction between the "course material" and what the "experience was for him." At that time the content of the course was an abstract leadership theory called "The Eleven Leadership Skills" which Scoutmasters then took back to their Troops to teach in the place of the previous three Patrol Leader skills (how to conduct--without adult supervision--Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts).

 

The "course material" at that time still included some of the original outdoor skills, so despite the anti-outdoor origin of the Eleven Leadership Skills, the actual "experience" of Wood Badge included an immersion in the Patrol Method.

 

As Marshall McLuhan said, "The Medium is the Message."

 

Joni4TA writes:

 

"In other words, the unit I serve has 3 WB beaders but basically they poo-poo the patrol method and make excuses about WHY our Troop can't use it - everything from "we only have 18 boys and that's not enough" (which is hogwash), to the more recent excuse I just got last week, which was the SM didn't think using the Patrol method, at least on the campouts (operating with an ADULT PATROL where the ADULTS lead by EXAMPLE), was feasible - because he didn't think the boys would be able to have a nutritious meal in a decent amount of time if left on their own to handle it. (YIKES)"

 

In all fairness, I have NEVER heard a Wood Badger say that they don't use the Patrol Method!

 

They simply define the Patrol Method away.

 

For instance "we only have 18 boys and that is not enough for the Patrol Method" is usually spun as a varitation of Stupid Idea #2: "The Eight Methods are all of equal value and the Patrol Method is only one of the eight. Therefore we keep the boys together 7/8 of the time."

 

Adults cooking on monthly campouts is new to me, but the idea that cooking by Patrols is a waste of time is the very signature of the new Wood Badge. This signature is usually spun as Stupid Ideas #10, 11, and 12: "We used the Patrol Method when they sat together by Patrols to eat."

 

"'Family Camping Program' which personally disgusts me in a manner that is beyond my abilities to express.'

 

Yeah, don't go there. You are already on the "Enemies of Wood Badge" list for encouraging your Scouts to try "old-school stuff" like semaphore! There is nothing that enrages Wood Badgers more than traditional outdoor skills like semaphore!

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

CrewMomma writes:

 

"You probably guessed it but I am WB trained and currently on staff...yes people are put into patrols and people learn if they choose to learn - or not if they can't get passed their closed minds.

 

Saying that the course has been "dumbed down" is an ignorant statement, plain and simple. Ignorant, intolerant, and bad spirit."

 

In case anyone could possibly miss anything so absolutely perfect, what did I tell you all about answering Eamonn's trick question?

 

Um, that would be:

 

"If you answer that you have taken the course then they will counter that you did not do so with an 'open mind.'

 

This accusation of thought-crime is usually the first in a long barrage of ad hominem attacks which reveal the true nature of Wood Badge."

 

Wood Badge is my sock-puppet!

 

Kudu

 

[RememberSchiff]

"There is nothing that enrages Wood Badgers more than traditional outdoor skills like semaphore!"

 

Add to that "trail marking" where we placed stones or sticks in certain patterns to give trail directions.

 

'My Gawd. Leave No Trace put those rocks back.'

 

Too funny, but true. "Stalking" is another one, but I'm too PC aware to even mention it, dang I guess I shouldn't have said that.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

"As Marshall McLuhan said, "The Medium is the Message.""

 

I agree

[Lisabob]

Err yeah Schiff, I know plenty of Wood Badgers and I have yet to hear a single one of them rant about any of the items you mention. Nor can I imagine what WB would have to do with it, if they did rant.

 

Reality is that some people don't care much for the WB course, either the "old" one or the "new" one, or both. That's fine. No point (as far as I can see) in beating others over the head with it though. Or being downright nasty about it as some posters tend to be (very scout-like behavior there). Like any course, there are those who benefit from it and those who don't. Among the latter category one will probably find that these folks didn't really want to be there in the first place more often than not.

[RememberSchiff]

Lisabob???

Kudu's comment, made me recall an incident where a new WBer was upset that I was showing scouts how to mark a trail for others to follow - an old Second Class skill... much older than that actually.

 

I thought it was funny and as I recall he was the one being nasty.

 

Sometimes a humorous observation is just a humorous observation.

[Lisabob]

Sorry Schiff, no I do not think you were being nasty. As for the newly minted WB'er who got upset - well - they probably would have had a fit about it (or about something else, if it hadn't been that) regardless of their WB status. (Heck, we all know that sort, who attempt to "pull rank" using whatever tool they think will work. Some people are mistaken and believe that somehow having done WB makes them morally superior to others. Thankfully these types are few and far between, in my experience.) Sad commentary on that person, but I'm not sure I'd blame the Wood Badge curriculum for it. Same as in Joni's situation - WB or not, people who want to be obnoxious are more than likely going to be obnoxious!

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

You know Schiff, the medium is the message, the new WB'ers attitude towards you was much more of a message than anything that could have been said. I know I suffer from the malady of being so passionate that sometimes my passion obscures the idea I wanted to communicate. It does no good to abuse, belittle and generally harass someone who you are trying to have understand a point of view. Most people don't respond well to that style of "education"

[TAHAWK]

Kudu, I don't fully understand your beef.

 

I first took Scouter training in 1962. Our SM required it for new SM's. I still have my notes (now seriously brittle and tea-brown): "Scouting is a citizenship-training program wrapping in a game." "Our goal is turning out young men with the sound body, sound mind, and sound values required for them to be good citizens and good leaders of our communities, states and nation."

 

I heard pretty much the same thing when I re-upped in 1982 and retrained in 1983, took WB for the first time in 1985, and taught Trainer Development earlier this month. It's implicit in every Eagle Charge I have given since 1965 ("Our Country has no greater need . . .")

 

I guess I just don't see these sorts of statements regarding the goals of Scouting as inconsistent with BP's comments. In fact, they fit just fine for me.

 

 

"1972": My complaint about Boy Power/urban-relevant Scouting, which I viewed from outside Scouting and, later, in a historic perspective, is that weakening the outdoor program reduced the attraction of Scouting to urban youth, NOT that any method is more sacred than the goals and objectives.

 

 

As for the Scoutmaster's job vis-a-vis training "leaders" - a term applied strictly to Scouts in our Troop (adults are "Scouters"), I think the Patrol Method works better with trained leaders just as a squad, platoon, company, etc, functions better with a trained leader.

 

Are there "natural leaders"? Sure. And my experience is that THEY do better as leaders with leadership training, just as they do better as Scoutcraft trainers with training in Scoutcraft. And I've seen some pretty sorry "material" do significantly better after leadership training.

 

Which makes me wonder why district-level leadership training of Scouts - a program that impacted much more widely than the week-long course, disappeared when I wasn't looking. I keep hearing that it's coming back, but I have not seen it.

 

 

"Pink"? The wearing of the beads is encouraged with any neckerchief. Is it the beads that offend? If so, recall who introduced them as an outward sign of the demonstrated commitment of Scouters who wanted to do better.

 

 

I will be taking WB agin this month. My only misgiving is how to deal with the fact that my employer put me through Situational Leadership I & II (2 weeks) and something called "Breakthrough Leadership" (1 week), the latter including sessions on "Change Management" and "Managing Diversity." I think I will be doing a lot of keeping my mouth shut.

[evmori]

Which makes me wonder why district-level leadership training of Scouts - a program that impacted much more widely than the week-long course, disappeared when I wasn't looking. I keep hearing that it's coming back, but I have not seen it.

 

My district still does this TAHAWK! We call it LLT - Learned Leadership Training. Staffed this a few times! Great course! Sorta a pre-NYLT!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[TAHAWK]

ecmori, a number of such courses have been offered by units or districts here since the official syllabus was withdrawn.

[Kudu]

DYB-Mike writes:

 

"It seems to me that, back at that time, at the point one would take Wood Badge ones scouting career would be just about over. What then was the point of Wood Badge back at that time?"

 

Before 1972 the Wood Badge indicated qualification to train Scoutmasters. This was serious business because Scoutmasters were responsible for conducting a six-month Patrol Leader Training (PLT) course called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol."

 

This form of leadership training requires the Scoutmaster to act as Patrol Leader of the Green Bar Patrol with the SPL as his Assistant Patrol Leader and the PLC as Patrol members. The Patrol conducts 1) Patrol Meetings, 2) a Patrol Hike, and 3) a Patrol Campout.

 

The object of the course is to train a Patrol Leader how to be responsible for his Patrol's Advancement by competently conducting these three basic functions of a Boy Scout Patrol without adult supervision.

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

In 1972 everything changed. The BSA cultural revolution eliminated the Uniform Method and the "Scout Way" Method, introduced the new "Leadership Development" Method, and radically deconstructed the Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method.

 

Perhaps the most striking aspect of this deconstruction was the dumbing down of Traditional Scouting to make it relevant to inner-city youth.

 

The BSA's commitment was absolute and all-pervasive: ALL of the Merit Badges that required camping were stripped from the Eagle list.

 

Let me repeat that: Not a SINGLE Merit Badge that involved camping was now required to be an Eagle Scout!

 

The politically correct Eighth Edition of the Scout Handbook became a wealth of information on Scouting in the inner-city, including on page 282 a new illustrated guide to signs of wildlife that included the Clothes Moth, House Mouse, House Fly, Cockroach, and Norway Rat.

 

More relevant to your question, Mike: The only index reference to what to do if lost was the advice to simply ask a policeman for directions!

 

So Wood Badge as serving the practical need to train a Patrol Leader how to safely lead his Patrols into the woods became obsolete:

 

In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155).

 

Anyone who linked leadership to Scoutcraft skills in the Patrol Method was now "old fashioned" and "elitist."

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

TAHAWK writes:

 

"Kudu, I don't fully understand your beef."

 

Google "cognitive dissonance:" The Wikipedia account of the 1956 UFO doomsday cult is a good example of my "beef" with the "goals of Scouting."

 

"I first took Scouter training in 1962. Our SM required it for new SM's. I still have my notes (now seriously brittle and tea-brown): 'Scouting is a citizenship-training program wrapping in a game.'

 

I guess I just don't see these sorts of statements regarding the goals of Scouting as inconsistent with BP's comments. In fact, they fit just fine for me."

 

Yes, they are the same pretty words, aren't they?

 

The difference between the BSA in 1962 and in 2008 is that in 1962 the "game" that you mention was a hard-played game. In 2008 any indoor boy can earn Eagle Scout without EVER walking into the woods with a pack on his back.

 

Do you think that is an exaggeration? Check the requirements for Camping Merit Badge and then compare the physical exertion and the mastery of basic skills required for Eagle with those required for any school sport and you will understand the true meaning of "Parlour Scouting."

 

That is why the two most important Methods of Scouting (the Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method) are infinitely more important than the so-called "Three Aims of Scouting" (a 1972 invention).

 

As for Baden-Powell's comments, when B-P spoke about Citizenship as the sole aim of Scouting, he was talking about the direct experience of Citizenship in the Patrol System. The fundamental idea is that Scouting is a game in which Scouts learn citizenship from older Scouts 1) in a primitive environment in which Scout Law is a practical guide for getting along, and 2) by providing "Service for Others" in their community (no counting the hours for advancement, by the way).

 

He wrote that the Patrol System is the direct opposite of learning Citizenship through "Instruction." Therefore his Merit Badges (called Proficiency Badges) are either Scoutcraft Badges (worn on the right side of the Uniform) or Public Service Badges (worn on the left). There are no classroom Merit Badges (including "Citizenship").

 

For the first decade of its history, the BSA flatly rejected B-P's Patrol System in favor of tightly adult-run model. Among other things this introduced classroom instruction Citizenship Merit Badges: The exact opposite of Scouting, even though the goals sound similar.

 

"'1972': My complaint about Boy Power/urban-relevant Scouting, which I viewed from outside Scouting and, later, in a historic perspective, is that weakening the outdoor program reduced the attraction of Scouting to urban youth, NOT that any method is more sacred than the goals and objectives."

 

In other words: The ends always justify the means. This is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance. In this approach to Scouting (often associated with the fake B-P quote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose") the "purpose" of the Outdoor Method is to "attract" kids to Scouting, and the "purpose" of the Patrol Method is to teach "Leadership." This is exactly backward, because Scouting IS Scoutcraft and the Patrol System. Without them you do not have Scouting, no matter what your "Mission Statement" says.

 

As I outlined in my previous post, to pander to urban youth the BSA removed from the requirements for Eagle ALL of the Merit Badges that required camping. Given the stunning stupidity of such a thing, how can you possibly not recognize that the Outdoor Method is more important than abstract "goals and objectives"? The Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method existed before the so-called "Aims of Scouting," not the other way around.

 

Of course the ONLY reason that William Hillcourt was called in to restore the Outdoor Method was that dumbing the program down to attract urban youth did not increase the BSA's overall market-share, in fact the BSA went into a sharp decline. It should be noted that although he did restore most of the camping requirements, Hillcourt was not allowed to touch the new "Leadership Development Method" which did to his greatest creation--the Patrol Method--what rats and cockroaches had done to the Outdoor Method.

 

"As for the Scoutmaster's job vis-a-vis training 'leaders' - a term applied strictly to Scouts in our Troop (adults are 'Scouters'), I think the Patrol Method works better with trained leaders just as a squad, platoon, company, etc, functions better with a trained leader."

 

It depends on what you mean by a "trained leader." Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (PLT) course trained Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders. JLT dumbed training down to the least common denominator: Troop Scribes, Librarians, and Historians. I would also note that for it to be a valid comparison, the object of military "Leadership Development" would be to teach everybody how to be a leader and to that end hold regular elections with term limits so that every "sorry" would-be leader in the squad, platoon, company, etc. got an equal opportunity to be voted in to learn "leadership" under fire.

 

"Are there 'natural leaders'? Sure. And my experience is that THEY do better as leaders with leadership training, just as they do better as Scoutcraft trainers with training in Scoutcraft."

 

I agree. By "natural leaders" I mean Scouts with above-average IQs, adult-level verbal skills (which usually get them into trouble at school), the physical bearing to keep order without adult assistance, and an all-pervading but distinctly anti-moralistic embrace of Scout Law. In my experience every one of these "natural leaders" enjoyed learning abstract leadership skills.

 

And I've seen some pretty sorry "material" do significantly better after leadership training.

 

Here is where I part company with you. Leadership training should serve the Patrol Method (as in Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting model), not the other way around. To the Wood Badge Brain there would be absolutely nothing wrong with allowing "some pretty sorry 'material'" lead a squad, platoon, company into fire because the purpose of the new Wood Badge is to teach Leadership to everybody, not to establish working Patrols that always camp 300 feet apart.

 

"'Pink'? The wearing of the beads is encouraged with any neckerchief. Is it the beads that offend? If so, recall who introduced them as an outward sign of the demonstrated commitment of Scouters who wanted to do better."

 

This is another cognitive dissonance based on the conviction that the ends justify the means. To me the pink represents the passive nature of Wood Badge: 1) a "commitment" to obey anyone who tells them to "Dumb it Down and Call it Modern!" and 2) a passive approach to leadership in which they work with any sorry material that the Scouts vote into office. If the abstract theories of Wood Badge had any real-world validity what-so-ever, most of the course would be devoted to strategies for Scoutmasters to 1) recognize the very best leaders and 2) reach a consensus with their Patrols that keeps them in power.

 

I always wear my Beads, but my Beads stand for what Baden-Powell intended them to stand for: An absolute commitment to Scoutcraft and the Patrol System.

 

Without them the Ideals of Scouting are only pretty words.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eamonn]

I've never taken the time to find out how dumb I really am?

Many years back Dr.Foreshaw ,the poor guy who served as my math master at school seemed to think I was fairly dumb.

I'm almost certain that attending Wood Badge or any other training has not made me any dumber!

 

I have and still do think of myself as being a run of the mill scout.

I'm not an expert in anything.

I know a lot about food and cooking, but I don't count that as it's what I do to bring home the bacon.

My outdoor skills are in fine shape.

I enjoy spending time with the youth we serve, they seem to like and respect me.

I try to offer them a program that is fun, is adventurous and offers them new challenges.

If they decide that they want to do something that I'm not able to provide, I'm happy to look for a place or a person who can deliver the goods.

I'm not a fan of same aged patrols. I'll admit that I never liked the idea so was happy to ignore it. I have never seen the need for a New Scout Patrol, in fact in my view I think having one takes away some of the responsibility I place on the Patrol and the PL.

But if it works in other places and people are happy with it? More power to them.

While I know a lot of the stuff that can be found in the books and agree with most of it. When it comes down to doing things, I don't really give much thought to anything other than the activity (Whatever it might be.)

I'm not really looking at a list of the methods of Scouting, the aims or even the oath and law.

I for some reason seem to think that by doing what we do, the way we do it; everything is going to fall into place.

The Scouts know that they live and work in patrols, they expect to and want to do stuff outdoors,they know that there is an expectation that at times they will need to wear a uniform. They know that along the way there will be adults to work with them and when needed help and advise them.

They know if they mess up that they are going to get the Eamonn Scout Law and Oath sermon!!

I think they know that I really do care for each and every one of them.

No training can teach people to care.

I think we take it for granted that the people who volunteer do care.

I'm not sure why? But it does seem to me that a lot of the adults who are now serving as adult leaders don't seem to have the outdoor skills that I have.

This does worry me.

I have never taken the goal of making any rank within a set time to heart. Maybe because it was never a problem. Scouts who are active in the Troop just seem to reach their goals without the need of some sort of plan.

I do take ensuring that they do have the skills needed to heart.

These skills are the key that opens the door to more adventurous and more challenging activities. These bigger and more challenging activities will hopefully make them want to remain in the program and the longer they are around the more impact Scouts and Scouting will have on them. They will have a better understanding of all the good stuff found in the oath, the law, what true leadership is and what is is to be a caring person.

We can look at any Wood Badge course, new, old, English, American, in fact any course from any place in the world and I very much think that a week long training is not going to provide everything that is needed to be a good Scout leader.

While I don't have anything that will back what follows up!!

Back when I first joined Scouts (Maybe this was just an English thing?) Parents didn't get involved. Troops were led by a small group (less than six) of people who for some reason knew what they were doing. I'm not sure how they come to know this? Some were ex-military, some had been through Wolf Cubs, Boy Scouts, Senior Scouts and Rover Scouts -But they really knew their stuff. I remember as a Scout sitting around a campfire listening to a group of them discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the Japanese lashing for hours!!

Maybe it was because they seemed like some kind of elite group that they in some way scared others away? Or maybe they just weren't very welcoming? Even the committees seemed to be comprised of "Elderly Scouting types"

My first trip to Wood Badge was or seemed to me to be about the inter-patrol competition. More about which Patrol had the best and most skilled members.

We were treated like Boy Scouts for a week and we acted like Boy Scouts for a week.

Fast- forward to the 21st Century.

I see lots more adults involved in the Troops and Packs.

I spent over ten years as a District Commissioner and District Chairman. In that ten years never once did I receive a call from a youth member telling me that his program wasn't very good. But at times it seemed that the phone was ringing non-stop with calls from adults who just never learned how to get along.

Part of this was due to the fact that they didn't understand the program -What we are trying to do! Part of this was due to poor leadership -Adults forming teams and working together toward a common goal.

Take a look at the number of adults it takes to run a normal everyday Cub Scout Pack. It isn't hard to see that without some kind of management training this is going to face all sorts of problems.

Back when I first became a leader, we would take the Troop away with four or five adult leaders who were all very committed to what we were doing, who knew or understood scouting. We each knew each other, we were all close pals.

A couple of years back I visited OJ's Troop at summer camp. They had 28 Scouts in camp with 16 adults. While the SM and a couple of the ASM's are trained and do know what they are doing, many were just parents who were there to keep an eye on their kid, but had their own idea what Scouts and Scouting should be.

The new course does help provide tools that I have found very useful dealing with youth members, but I have found the course has helped me most when it comes to dealing with adults.

 

It does seem that the task of providing adults with outdoor skills and a better understanding of the methods of each program has fallen on the local councils.

How each local council goes about this is yet to be seen.

As I have said this is just the way I see things and is nothing more than my opinion.

Eamonn.