Who Conducts Wood/Cedar Badge Training? A Volunteer or?

[Joni4TA]

I am curious... as it is extremely expensive. It costs as much to go to a business management seminar in some cases.

 

Also what about Cedar Badge for youth? It's almost as much as WB! There's probably a handful of boys in our Unit that have gone to CB. One never wants to be SPL, one never shows up, a third never applies his knowledge, etc. It seems like something too expensive to send people to who aren't ready to get something out of it!

 

But since I am not eligible for either (I think), I was curious if it's volunteers or professionals who teach these courses. If volunteers, why in the world does it cost so much to go?

 

Thanks!

[emb021]

"I am curious... as it is extremely expensive. It costs as much to go to a business management seminar in some cases."

 

Excuse me, but Wood Badge is NOT 'extremely expensive'. Most courses run around $200. This is for 2 weekends or 1 week of training. You're lucky to get a couple of hours of business management seminar training for that amount of money. Equivalent business seminars to Wood Badge will run you 4 figures!

 

"Also what about Cedar Badge for youth? It's almost as much as WB! There's probably a handful of boys in our Unit that have gone to CB. One never wants to be SPL, one never shows up, a third never applies his knowledge, etc. It seems like something too expensive to send people to who aren't ready to get something out of it! "

 

Uh, there is no such thing as "Cedar Badge". The program for youth is called National Youth Leader Training (NYLT). Cost is about the same, around $200 for a week of training.

 

Do you have any concept of what the cost of these courses are or what they are paying for? They pay for the participants food and various supplies.

 

"But since I am not eligible for either (I think), I was curious if it's volunteers or professionals who teach these courses. If volunteers, why in the world does it cost so much to go?"

 

Wood Badge and ALL Scouting training is given by volunteers. The BSA (and its councils) make LITTLE or NO money on the courses. Where are you getting this idea of high expense??? Most courses are break even, maybe make a little money (as a contingency fee). Biggest costs are food and supplies (handouts etc). Staff don't get paid, and most themselves do pay a fee to cover THIER costs (food, etc).

 

 

 

[eagle-pete]

Ditto on what emb021 said

 

I am really not understanding where Joni4TA is getting info on Wood Badge. It seems more like myths than actual facts.

 

Can you provide some sources with the details of the costs and courses you are referencing here?

 

National is, in fact, adamant about keeping costs down for Wood Badge. Why on earth would BSA want to promote trainings which are neither affordable nor desirable to attend?!?

 

Eagle Pete

[Joni4TA]

The cost of Wood Badge seems to run between $150 and $300. That's expensive to me. So are other training courses outside of the BSA. I am not saying it's not worth it, I am just curious as to who teaches these courses and why the cost is what it is.

 

And yes there is such a thing as Cedar Badge. Read on:

 

http://www.grandtetoncouncil.org/Forms/Training/Cedar%20Badge/CBApplication.pdf

 

http://www.grandtetoncouncil.org/index.cfm?pageid=1492

 

http://www.bsatroop107.com/training.html

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CEDAR BADGE: Cedar Badge is a week long Junior Leader Training Experience provided by volunteer Scouts and Scouts of the Alamo Area Council to prepare junior leaders with effective patrol and troop leadership. Cedar Badge Goals:

* To give Scouts an understanding of the 11 skills of leadership and how to apply them in his troop and patrol. * To prepare Scouts with a learning experience in a variety of Scoutcraft skills which will enable him to assist his patrol and troop members as they participate in the Boy Scouts of America advancement program.* To provide junior leaders with the knowledge to assist in creating a quality program for their own troop. * To give Scouts an opportunity to share experiences with other junior leaders in the Alamo Area Council.

Offered in 2008: June 7-14, 2008

 

 

[Joni4TA]

I see in Alamo Area Council, Cedar Badge is taught "by volunteer Scouts and Scouts of the Alamo Area Council." Is this the case wherever this is offered?

[Gold Winger]

$200 isn't much to an executive who makes $150,000 a year or more. However, to someone working at Wal-mart and trying to raise two kids, pay the rent and buy food, $200 is a fortune.

 

You can't really compare corportate training to BSA training. For one, the instructors aren't volunteers. And your employer is usually paying the bill.

[Lisabob]

Hi Joni,

 

First, regarding WB, I agree that it can seem like a lot of money for a volunteer to shell out for training, especially in comparison to the (far lower) cost for most of the other BSA training sessions. However, most councils offer Wood Badge scholarships to those who otherwise could not afford it, and many units will help their scouters pay part of the cost as well.

 

With regard to qualifications for WB, all you need is to have completed all required training for your current position. If I recall correctly you are a troop committee member, right? So you would need to have had Youth Protection Training, New Leader Essentials, and Troop Committee Training. YPT and the committee training can even be done online if I recall correctly, so the hurdle is fairly low. Now as to whether it is desirable (though not required) to have other training under one's belt, is another matter, and I think it makes sense for troop committee people to take OLS too, but I don't think it is required unless you are an ASM or SM.

 

As for Cedar Badge - this looks to me like a local nickname for a council's National Youth Leadership Training week. Maybe they figured more leaders would send their youth if the name mirrored WB, I don't know.

 

Hope this helps!

[Joni4TA]

Thank you GW and Lisa. I have 6 children (3 still living in the home), 3 grandchildren, and a spouse that was our breadwinner but hasn't worked in full capacity since October 2005.

 

I don't know why folks get so nearly rude, and can't seem to believe just because it's not expensive for THEM, maybe it IS for "the other guy" when the other guy says it is. Expensive is a relative term, depending on what one's personal financial status and priorities are. When my car insurance and property taxes are due in the same month as Wood Badge, Wood Badge is TOO expensive! I don't know if I am eligible for a scholarship or not. I don't know if I am in fact eligible for Wood Badge. I am not sure what the "outdoor skills training program appropriate" for my Scouting position is; yes that would be Committee Member. I think it's OLS, which I don't have. I completed SM Specific but a typhoon canceled my OLS weekend.

 

How much is it going to cost my family for me to be gone though, too? Another story. I may not contribute monetarily but I am the house-mouse at this time, however small and worthless others may feel that contribution is.

 

I was trying to find out are they professionals that teach this or volunteers? If volunteers, why does it cost as much as it does?

 

In my Council it looks like what's covered in the cost of Wood Badge are "food, training materials, a hat, copyright fees, supplies, insurance and recognition." They do the training on 2 weekends, and it's held in the park our Council owns.

 

Anyway, I was just curious what costs actually cover. Maybe my question needs to go to my Council instead.

[eolesen]

Joni, if you're MC, then you don't need OLS to attend WB. Check with your council, but they may offer camperships or a WB "loan" which you repay on your honor after the fact.

 

Cedar Badge is the local name for NYLT, just like Oak Badge, Twin Arrows, Polaris, SilverAxe, Brownsea, Buckskin, and a lot of other names that various councils have used (and borrowed from other councils).

 

They're all now supposed to be branded "Localname NYLT".

 

My son's course was staffed by volunteers, and I'm not so sure that the $200 is out of line. That's $40 a day for food, consumables, facility rent and curriculum.

 

A three day "Seven Habits" course runs between $1100 and $1500 per person. Most project management courses run about the same (between $300 and $500 per day) just for the training. Food and meeting space are separate costs.

 

So, the cost of BSA training really is a bargain.

 

 

We were given $20/day in petty cash to buy food for the outdoor portion, so I'll guess that the per day cost for the first half are comparable. That's half the expense right there, or $120 for six days.

 

Camp fees were probably minimal because we were also at a council camp, but you still have to pay for trash pickup, utilities (electric for the dining hall, gas to fire the kitchen stoves and water heaters). Figure $2/day per person for camp fees, and $1/day per person for liability insurance.

 

Now we're up to $138.

 

National fee is $400/course. Prorate that to $10 per person.

 

Subtotal... $148.

 

Course materials? Binder with all of the printed material, easily $10. Figure another $20/person for the various consumables used for activities, immediate recognition, duct tape, rope, etc.

 

That brings the cost up to about $178.

 

 

Cost of the neckers, certificate, and leather woggle?

 

 

Priceless.

 

 

Actually, the woggles are about $6, and the neckers about $6 each. Total, $18.

 

That's $196. Not too far off from the $200 you're mentioning.

 

 

My council's 2008 training is pegged at $250, but there's an early bird price of $200.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[resqman]

"I was trying to find out are they professionals that teach this or volunteers? If volunteers, why does it cost as much as it does?

 

In my Council it looks like what's covered in the cost of Wood Badge are "food, training materials, a hat, copyright fees, supplies, insurance and recognition." They do the training on 2 weekends, and it's held in the park our Council owns.

 

Anyway, I was just curious what costs actually cover. Maybe my question needs to go to my Council instead."

 

I am confused. You quote the description of what the fees cover. Food for two weekends, class materials, insurance, hat, recogintion and books. The instructors are all volunteers. They are other scouters who have taken the course.

 

It was also mentioned if you have a financial hardship, most WB courses & councils have a scholarship program. Many troops cover a portion of the cost. Some troops require the student to pay all costs up front and reimburse 50% after the class. Some troops cover the cost of all adult training.

 

How much would you typically budget for food per person for an adult patrol camping out Fri nite, all day Sat and 2 meals on Sunday? Include two snacks. $30, $40, $50? Double that and that would be a large portion of the WB cost since the course is over two weekends.

[emb021]

"The cost of Wood Badge seems to run between $150 and $300. That's expensive to me. So are other training courses outside of the BSA. I am not saying it's not worth it, I am just curious as to who teaches these courses and why the cost is what it is. "

 

$150-300 for a weeks worth of training is not that expensive.

 

I am not aware of other, similiar training courses outside of the BSA costing the same. Most of what I have seen are a LOT more expensive, getting into a thousand or several thousand.

 

For instance, I just got a notification from my university of a 2 day business course for $800. This would not include housing, food, etc.

 

"In my Council it looks like what's covered in the cost of Wood Badge are "food, training materials, a hat, copyright fees, supplies, insurance and recognition." They do the training on 2 weekends, and it's held in the park our Council owns.

 

Anyway, I was just curious what costs actually cover. Maybe my question needs to go to my Council instead. "

 

Well, you kind of answered your own question. Wood Badge costs are based on:

 

* food. 3 meals a day for 7 days.

* training materials. cost of notebook, handouts, etc.

* hat. $5 or so. Most courses also have a t-shirt.

* copyright fees. About $10-15 per person to cover copyrighted materials being shown.

* supplies. other supply costs then what is covered above.

* insurance. all councils include insurance fees, camping fees, etc.

* recognition. cost of any recognition items. WB neckerchief, etc.

 

 

Wood Badge is for ALL scouters. As noted, there are Wood Badge Scholarships to help scouters who can't pay attend. Some units may also help defray costs.

 

 

"And yes there is such a thing as Cedar Badge."

 

That is your local council's name for NYLT. 'Cedar Badge' is not the national name for this course.

 

[scoutldr]

I think it's expensive, too, Joni. Eamonn was a Course Director, so maybe he has first hand facts. I know that some courses include a lot of extra "doo dads" like T-shirts, caps, notebooks, etc that IMHO are unnecessary "fluff" and should be optional. There are some materials that are copyrighted and they have to pay a royalty fee, so that cost is passed on as well.

 

As you state, there are "hidden" costs, such as extra uniforms, time off from work, child care, transportation, etc., that will vary for each participant.

 

To answer some of your other questions, ANY scouter who has completed basic training for their registered position (i.e., can wear the "TRAINED" strip) is "eligible" for WB. The course is taught by all volunteer Scouters from your Council.

[eagle-pete]

Joni4TA

 

May I clarify something?

 

You wrote:

I don't know why folks get so nearly rude, and can't seem to believe just because it's not expensive for THEM, maybe it IS for "the other guy" when the other guy says it is.

 

First of all, I apologize if I or someone else replied in a way that seems rude. My intention was certainly not to be rude to you.

 

But let me explain... in your original post you state that "...it is extremely expensive. It costs as much to go to a business management seminar in some cases."

 

Well, I think that I, and perhaps emb021, tied the two statements you made (that it is extremely expensive, and that it costs as much as a business management seminar) together. We may have made the wrong assumption, but it appeared that you were comparing the cost of Wood Badge courses to similar business courses which are offered in the corporate world.

 

There are a couple of dynamics here... One, we want to dispel any myths that tend to spread, like Wood Badge is an expensive and exclusive course only for those who can afford it. This is simply not the case and as Lisabob pointed out, many councils offer ways to offset the cost. Another issue is recent topics on this site which deal with this very subject have become somewhat inflated. As you can imagine there are people just like you who visit this site wondering the same things as you, such as whether Wood Badge is worth the cost to attend. Rather than discourage someone from attending because of cost, we would prefer to illustrate the benefits of Wood Badge which, IMO, greatly outweigh the cost in dollars.

 

So why don't I start now with listing some benefits -

 

Scouting Spirit

Because of the material presented, the environment, and the quality trainers who are invested solely in seeing that you come away with a great experience, your Scouting Spirit will increase and become a part of everything you do in Scouting.

 

Camaraderie

You will meet new people, and because you spend a week of your life with these people, you will become fast friends with many of them. Additionally, some may directly be involved with changing your perspective and outlook on Scouting, the youth, how you interact with others, and your life. Those people will become especially important to you.

 

Knowledge

Can you put a dollar value on knowledge? You will be exposed to leadership skills, relationship management, structure and foundation of Scouting. I know of no other training course that provides this level of knowledge coupled with the fun and adventure of Scouting for the price you have seen.

 

Vision

A good deal of how we portray Scouting to the youth is our own vision of what it can and should be. Wood Badge is presented in a way in which you are able to create your own vision of Scouting. It is the catalyst of change which can make your unit better and will directly affect the youth you serve. Remember, "Every boy deserves a trained leader".

 

Goals

By setting realistic and meaningful goals, and employing a method of achieving those goals, Wood Badge will bring you that much closer to reaching your vision. Additionally, you take away and keep the skills and knowledge you paid good money for. As you accomplish the goals which you set, you ensure that the training doesn't turn into just a good experience you once had. You actually change your life.

 

These are only a few of the benefits. It would not be possible for me to list everything that you will experience. For that, I suggest you sign up and go.

 

Oh, and please forgive me for having sounded harsh. It was just a knee-jerk reaction to an already hot topic on the forum. I am working on being more helpful in my replies.

 

Eagle Pete

[Joni4TA]

Ever hear the saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, how about saying nothing at all?"

 

I came here asking for help and to understand, not to be continually addressed by a chip on someone's shoulder. It's the "I know it all - you're an idiot - and let me tell you why" chip. I don't appreciate it. In my Council, the youth training IS ONLY called Cedar Badge, and has never been referred to as NYLT, so who are you to tell me in a condescending manner, "Uh, there is no such thing as "Cedar Badge"? Completely uncalled for.

 

Also, my Council's Wood Badge is not a 7-day deal, it is 4 days plus a Patrol meeting(s) in between. And I do not understand most anything about Wood Badge. The paperwork I have is vague. I know there are many experienced Scouters on this message board who have been to Wood Badge. So I wanted more information.

 

I hope this is not the way you treat all Scouters with questions about something they know little or are seeking information on. If you've been to Wood Badge, and learned in that course how to communicate with less experienced Scouters in the manner you do, then no thanks - I will NEVER go to Wood Badge.

 

----------------------------------------

 

I still don't quite understand what the "outdoor skills training program appropriate for my Scouting position" is, but the Wood Badge application I am looking at says I need this, under the part that says "Who May Attend Wood Badge." I'll have to ask someone.

 

I also don't know if I believe "food, training materials, a hat, copyright fees, supplies, insurance and recognition" add up to nearly $200 but I digress. The cost is what it is I suppose, and it's set for a reason. I think I'd be too embarrassed to ask about a scholarship. I don't know....

 

I appreciate the responses from those who didn't feel the need to be condescending. Thank you.

[John-in-KC]

Joni,

 

First, someplace behind your Council's "Cedar Badge" youth leadership training is a Curriculum. My best guess is that it's the BSA National Youth Leader Training. That's a week-long course.

 

The best person to provide you that answer is on your Council's Professional Service: The Reservation Director of whichever Scout Reservation actually hosts your course.

 

I agree with Lisa: 200 bucks isn't always easy to lay out for any training, be it corporate (my firm runs reimbursement only, not pre-pay), or personal. I will tell you the IRS treats WB as any other skill development course: It can be deductible. I recommend you contact your Council and ask to find a Scouter who is a CPA in your local area; he/she can give you accounting advice.

 

At the same time, emb021 is right: I've taken worse leadership training in the business world. Where I took the course, we have an advantage, several of the key volunteers do academic psychology for their day jobs. I will tell you to take a week of leadership pysch a la Wood Badge at my day job, I'd lay out about 2000 bux!

 

Good hunting and Good Scouting.