things we might change about WB

[gwd-scouter]

I have not attended Woodbadge. I was encouraged years ago to attend the Cub Scout version of Woodbadge. Didn't go to that because money was tight and I quite frankly wasn't sold on the concept. I heard about the other Woodbadge course offered at the same time - the one for Boy Scout Leaders - and it sounded much more interesting.

 

So, as this thread begins to turn into old vs. new Woodbadge I'd like to ask: did anyone on the forum attend the Cub version of Woodbadge? If so, what was it like? Was it and outdoors and skills type program that it seems the old version of Woodbadge was, or more of a management course like the new version seems to be?

 

The reason I ask this is it seems that once there were two versions - one for Boy Scout Leaders and one for Cub Scout Leaders, now there are two - everyone is invited. So, perhaps the course has been redesigned to be more of a management course because that fits the training and/or experience of most leaders. As I've posted in other Woodbadge forums, I've always found it a bit unfair that Cub Leaders can go to Woodbadge without having to attend Outdoor Leadership Skills like Boy Scout Leaders must. Not trying to trash Cub Leaders here - I spent 10 years as a Cub Leader - just trying to understand why the programs were changed from two to one.

[eolesen]

We slept in the tents we set up, cooked over the fires we built, had PLC's, had some sit down learning in cabins, worked on our pioneering & compass skills, did skits, lead worship services, attended assembly daily, backpacked, hiked & learned some new recipes all in the great outdoors! It was a blast & the best training course I have ever attended for anything! No movies, no long lectures. Tons of hands on stuff. My patrol functioned the way a Scout patrol was expected to function. We worked together toward a goal! We all made new friends.

 

You just described my description of Outdoor Leadership Skills. We cooked over fires, slept in tents, had our campfire and Scouts Own service, made gadgets out of saplings and lashings, did axe and knife work, knots, went thru an orienteering course, and had our field assemblies.

[John-in-KC]

My 2d weekend:

 

We cooked over fires

Well, we used a gas grill, a couple of picnic-table gas stoves, and a camp stove (for the coffeepot!).

 

slept in tents

Check

 

had our campfire

Check... one campwide, one in our own half-barrel off the ground

 

Scouts Own service

Check

 

made gadgets out of saplings and lashings

No, we didn't do this

 

did axe and knife work

Planted 100 trees per patrol on our conservation project

 

knots

Those we needed in due course for camp

 

went thru an orienteering course,

Nahhh

 

and had our field assemblies.

Gilwell can be anywhere you can form 8 Patrols and a Goofy Staff.

 

Did I mention the BBQ Chicken, Monkey bread, and camp coffee?

 

John

I used to be an Owl

C-40-05

[GernBlansten]

I've avoided posting in this thread because I haven't attended WB. But now that its evolved into WB vs WB21 (WB for the 21 century) and us vs them, I guess I can give my perspective.

First off, I haven't attended WB because from what I've understood, WB21 is a management course. I have had lots of corporate management courses costing thousands of dollars and several weeks of my time over the course of 20+ years. So I view WB21 as redundant for me. I think anyone who hasn't had this type of training, it would be great to go through.

I also understand that pre-WB21 was more scout craft oriented, much like a the Outdoor Leadership Training currently offered, just super-sized. When I took OLT three years ago, it was one weekend and they crammed a lot of scoutcraft into it. Not much time for the patrol method or leadership. It clearly didn't replace the old WB (at least from my perception of what that course was) but it was a good course.

 

So I understand the controversy of old WB vs WB21. They aren't the same course and can't be compared. Seems to me that BSA screwed up by calling the new WB the same name as the old WB. Think old Coke and new Coke. They should have called it something different, maintaining the old WB (or retiring it) and offering the new one as the next step in adult training beyond WB.

[Gonzo1]

To WB21C'ers,

It isn't that you're less, we're (WB pre 21C) better, it's two different courses. Some element from the old course are in the new course, some are not.

 

That's all.

[evmori]

So Ed, all the participants of WoodBadge for the 21rst Century did noot receive the same experience as you. And as a result we are less.

 

Where did I post anyone was less? I can't find it & I'm using my flashlight.

 

That is exactly the kind of attitude that needs to be eliminated from scouting as it serves no one

 

You are correct OGE. I hope you heed your own advice.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Its Me]

 

I have an MBA and the 15 week Dale Carnegie mangement course training/ All completed prior to Woddbadge. I have 20 years of industry experience and numerous 1 day, 1 hour and 2 day courses on management skills.

 

WB21 is not a management course. They do work on some public speaking skills only because this shows up on so high on many personal fears. They are also teaching you to be a trainer for youths who will do public speaking. The communications skills, public speaking, note taking and listening techniquies are straight out of the Patrol Leaders handbook. All this is a small part of the course.

 

Its not a lashing, tracking and wilderness survival training program. Ist focus is on the eight methods which have been consistant fo 60 years.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Ed,

 

Allow me to make this perfectly clear:

 

The attitude I processed as a result of reading your message was:

 

"It seems, in the eyes of some pre WB-21C participants, I'm not anything though..."

 

Your post of Wednesday, 11/28/2007: 1:14:14 PM wounded... deeply.

[GernBlansten]

I have been in middle management in a Fortune 50 corp for many years. Here's a partial list of training I was required to take.

Diversity

Project Management

Conflict Resolution

Full Spectrum Management

Team Building

Mentoring

Decision Making

Public Speaking and Presentation Skills

Goal Oriented Management

 

Gleaning from the posts of those who evangelize WB21, that is exactly what WB21 covers and is what differentiates it from the old course. I'm not saying one is better than the other. When you fundamentally change a product but call it the same thing, those who have bought into the original, will probably not embrace the "new and improved" version. The folks who only know the new program will view the former as "old and bad".

 

I liked the "New" Coke. But I didn't drink old Coke, I was a Pepsi guy. It didn't surprise me when those who loved the Classic Coke nearly rioted. Coke learned a lesson. Ever notice all the different Coke varieties now? Don't mess with what I'm comfortable with, go ahead and give us something new, but leave my old favorite alone.

 

[evmori]

Then, John, my post of Thursday, 11/29/2007: 6:33:20 AM applies to you, also. You can read between the lines all you want but the only thing you will find is you own assumptions.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

gwd-scouter,

I attended and was a staff member for the Cub Scout Trainer WB.

The course was offered as a 3 weekend course (As was some Boy Scout courses) I only participated only in the week long courses.

Have to admit that looking back it really was a mismash!!

We had all the WB "Frills"!!

The Patrol critters -Even though we were treated like adult cub scouts.

All the malarkey that used to go on at Gilwell Field (Which by the way never went on at the real Gilwell!!)

We did sleep in tents, but being Cub Scouts we were not allowed to light fires -All meals were provided in the mess hall.

There were a lot of camp fires (Pack campfires!!) In place of the feast which the old BSA Boy Scout course had, we had a blue and gold banquet.

As it was a trainer WB, all the sessions were inside and had to do with training.

As I posted on 11/20/2007. Why the course was held at Boy Scout camps? Seemed silly too me.

If anything the sessions were a little to perfect -I worked on my two for over a year!! A few weeks later I went to present a training for our District.

All the electrical outlets were two pin!! My TV/VCR combo was three pin!! The VCR ate my tape!! I was using OJ'S laptop and couldn't get it to read the disk!!

It was a welcome back to reality shock after the course where everything was and went so well. I now carry two laptops and a spare bulb for my LCD projector!!

Eamonn.

 

[purcelce]

WB is evolving just like other types of training classes, with my research on the old wb to the new, the new appears to be the better.

WB was a good experience for me, I had fun, learned some stuff, and made some new friend, but it was not the mountian top experience that several of the WB "mafia" told me it would be.

 

What really needs to change is some folks "attitude" toward the program. It is not a "religion", a fraternity, or click, like some folks make it appear. Some folks take it too serious and feel that some folks like me are out to "tarnish the good name of wb" (that is another story)

I have no problem with folks feeling that way, but the clic part is what I have a problem with. It isnt all WBers just a very small percentage.

With my "attitude" toward wb, I will never be invited to work staff. But is ok, cuz I get my batteries charged by working with my youth!

 

Have a great day folks

 

Cary P

C-39-06

 

 

[Eagle69]

I went through WB in 1978 and it was a walking WB at that. Even though the whole course was done outdoors on the move, I don't remember much outdoor skill instruction. What I do remember was learning how 8 individuals must learn to work together in order to get things done, that the pecking order, so to speak, is the Patrol Leader, SPL, and then the SM. I learned about getting and giving information, representing the group, and several other such things and these were what my ticket was based on. Our learning sessions were done on the side of the trail and now looking back I can see that everything we did had a purpose. We were there to learn what it was like to operate as a patrol and to learn leadership skills. I am like so others that have responded to this thread, the new WB course just doesn't appeal to me at all.

[theysawyoucomin']

Ed, I usually agree with what you say but this time I don't.

 

I couldn't take the old course right now if I wanted to. So where does that leave me?

 

Gin up an old course and I'll go but until then I took the only WB course offered. I'll never know how good fried passenger pidgeon breast tastes because they are no more just like the old course.

 

I agree with spending some time on the history of WB.

 

I agree with Eamonn--

The Bridge at NLE and the jig saw puzzle at TC challenge is just plain dumb.

 

I think calling it Wood Badge does tick off some of the old timers.

Well, Marine recruits don't spit shine shoes anymore. I never stood a short arm inspection but that doesn't make me or the new kids any less of a Marine to those who humped Surabachi or walked to the sea from Chosin.

My old Scoutmaster was in the 'Corps in 1950 and took the old course from Bill Hillcourt he never told me I was any less than he was. In fact he told me he was proud of my accomplishments.

 

WHY THE HECK CAN"T FOLKS BE MORE LIKE HIM?

 

Sometimes folks who know more overshadow the folks who know less. I HOPE THEY DON't DO THE SAME TO THE BOYS THEY WORK WITH.

 

As far as the movie I thought it was good. We are an audio-visual society BP couldn't have had a movie. He had to get the same idea across some other way.

 

Sleeping in a tent, pooping in a hole and cooking your own food does not a Wood Badger make. Hell, I did all that in the Marines but I never learned how to accomplish program type goals for young men to have a good time.

 

That to me is the essence of Wood Badge.

 

The kids we taught to ice fish at snow and do, the leaders I instructed at POWWOW, the kids we helped through the world Scouting Fund(whatever it's called I don't remember) none of them asked if I took the old course or new course. They just enjoyed the fruit of my efforts.

 

What would I change?

I'd make the thing one more weekend. On the third weekend you'd go backpacking and hump a pack ten miles, pack what you needed and really rough it so that all this BS could stop.

 

Backpacking teaches you leadership and management and attention to detail, and penalty for ill preparedness like none other.

 

I would behead any new course person who dared utter..."Well you guys in the old course and the 21st century course didn't have to....like we did in the SECOND CENTURY of Scouting WOOD BADGE(or whatever they would call it)

[Gold Winger]

In 1775, on November 10th, the first United States Marine was recruited. The recruited told the new Marine to hie himself down to to the docks and report to the OOD on the gallant ship Neverbeenone. The Marine, being a Marine did as he was ordered. The OOD glared at this Marine and having no idea what to do with him, ordered him to the fo'c'stle with the admonition to stay out of the way of the working sailors.

 

A little while later, the second Marine is recruited and sent to the same ship. The OOD glares at the second Marine with an an eye even more evil than he gave the first, muttered something about being overrun with Marines and banished him to the fo'c'stle to wait with the first.

 

The second Marine joins the first and says, "Wow! That OOD was really rough!" The first Marine says, "You think that guy was rough, you should have been in the OLD corps!"