Are Eagles necessarily good adult leaders?

[Lisabob]

It's Me's post brought up something I have seen quite a few times in the last several years: Eagle Scouts who ought to know better, doing a poor job of leading a scout unit. Two trends seem to come to light here.

 

First, I've seen quite a few units where the Eagle-Leader is pushy, bossy, and (ahem) never-wrong-about-anything. They pull out their "I'm an Eagle Scout so I know..." card whenever they are challenged, especially by someone who is not an Eagle Scout. There's just no reasoning with these folks. I've noticed this is especially problematic in Cub packs. Just because someone's an Eagle Scout doesn't mean they know the first thing about running a Cub pack - they may not even have been a Cub Scout.

 

Second, I've seen some where the person may well be an Eagle Scout, but either they came from a troop that was playing by its own rules, or they have a rather distorted memory of "how things were done." Because they want to do the strangest things, usually justified by the phrase "but that's how MY troop did it, and I earned Eagle!" Along these lines it seems to me that some folks don't see the difference in roles between being a youth participant (even one who earns the highest rank) and being an adult leader.

 

Please understand, I'm certainly not bashing Eagle Scouts. Even in the relatively short time I've been involved in Scouting as an adult, I've met some truly amazing and capable fellows of all ages, who are Eagles. I just think we need to be careful, as we select leaders for our packs, troops, crews, ships, and teams, that "Eagle" isn't the only, or even one of the most important, characteristics that we use in considering who will be a good leader.

[packsaddle]

I have also seen this and it hurts the program, the troop, and the boys. However, I think that this type of leader/martinet is out there in many forms and those who happen to be Eagles are merely using the rank to support a position that they would take anyway, using other tactics and forms of support if they didn't happen to be Eagles.

 

I wish I knew enough about people to understand why some seem to need to be 'in charge' of everything. I would like to think that these control freaks are motivated by deep-seated fears but that's too simple.

[Scouting Mom]

Like any group of people there are good and bad people.

 

If someone earned Eagle and is now a leader what does that mean?

 

Pros:

They know that scouting is a positive influence on young people. They know that the boys can get a lot out of the program and have fun doing it. They may know that sticking with it and earning Eagle can give a sense of accomplishment and could possibly help you in the future by giving you skills that will help you get a good job. Hopefully they can be a role model of Scouting values.

 

Cons:

Scouting has changed a lot over the years. I assume from some of the things you mention about these Eagle leaders you are talking about people who are of an age where they have kids of their own in Scouts, but even if you are talking about an 18-yo, who just got out of a troop... Cub Scouts has changed a lot in the last 8-10 years. Like anyone, if they aren't open to change they won't be a good leader. Anyone who takes an attitude of, "I know it all and you can't tell me how to do things" is a bad leader regardless of their credentials. Also, earning Eagle is about leadership skill among your peers. It has nothing to do with relating to children.

[John-in-KC]

From my experience,

 

Being IN the program is a beast of a different color and texture from being SUPPORT TO the program.

 

I've seen and heard leaders say "I'm an Eagle, I don't need training." These are folks I generally stay away from.

 

I've also seen and heard folks say "I'm an Eagle, how can I learn to serve these kids?" Those are the men who take training and WB, and put it to heart.

 

It seems to me that the more you see of servant leaders in Scouting, the better off the unit and the area is going to be.

[ASM162]

John-In-KC, You hit the nail on the head.

I have worked with some great gentlemen, who have earned the Eagle Award , and have taken the required training, mainly because they see the bigger picture of how it makes the program for the scouts that much better, as well as the helping the unit achieve quality status.

They understand that it's not what they've done, but what is expected of them, now and in the future.

Now with that said, I've also worked with gentlemen who have earned the Eagle Award, and don't have a clue as to how the unit is to function. The "Know it all" mentality really causes some concern for those of us in the troop who are trying to instill the values of scouting in the boys that we serve.

I'm not trying to bash Eagle Scouts. The accomplishment is to be commended.Just don't overlook a former Star or Life Scout, in favor of an Eagle Scout,when trying to fill an adult leader position in the unit. You may be surprised :-)

[ScoutNut]

"I've seen and heard leaders say "I'm an Eagle, I don't need training.""

 

Yup, I've run across these types too. In both Cub & Boy Scout units.

 

It is a real shame, especially if the person has the potential to be a really good leader.

 

[Trevorum]

My first coupla years with the troop, I was constantly surprised at how many things are done differently now, compared to how I remember (or perhaps mis-remember!) things when I was a youth. It was humbling. Of course now that I'm trained, I'm a know-it-all.

[dnorrington]

Scouting Mom makes a very good point!

 

Scouting has changed a lot over the years. I was inactive during my college years, as well as the first few years into my career. I am active again and serving as our Committee Chairman. I discovered fairly quickly that some things have indeed changed, especially local Council procedures. One issue that came up at this week's committee meeting was the procedure for signing up for merit badge classes at summer camp. When I was a youth, we filled out the paperwork requesting the classes we wanted and sent it to the office prior to camp. Apparently during my time away from Scouting, they started having a sign up during the first day at camp. Currently, some classes require internet signup prior to camp, while the remainder are still signed up for at camp.

 

The signup question was asked to me, and I promptly asked one of our young adults who has served on camp staff for the past few years to fill us in on the current procedure. He gave the new SM the current process, where I only knew the process that was used around 1990.

 

I think the real issue here is the individual. Just because you are an Eagle Scout, that doesn't mean that you know everything. Being a leader is more important that being the one that gives the answers! I think another issue is that as youth, many boys do not see what the adults do outside of a meeting or a campout. Attending training, roundtables, etc. are additional responsibilities that we have as leaders, but the youth often don't see this. Some don't see the entire picture. Luckily, my father was a SM for several years, so I remember (very well) the nights and weekends that he was away from home for training or other meetings.

 

Regards,

Darren

[awesome1_in_cc]

The biggest problem I see is that a lot of us former scouts (not just Eagle Scouts)who are now giving back and serving as adult leaders are trying to "re-create" the experiences from our youth in our curent troops.

 

We sometimes need to be gently reminded to put away our scrapbooks, pull out the scout handbook and that is O.K for the scouts to fail because that is how they learn to be effective leaders and quality young men. I'm not saying this is easy for a leader to do as I have to be reminded all the time by my better have to step back and let the program work.

 

But then again, what does she know? I'm an Eagle Scout and she's not!!

[Gunny2862]

And don't forget that a lack of Scouting credentials doesn't mean someone wouldn't be a good Scouting leader. Especially if they are a Servant Leader type and look for training opportunities instead of waiting for the SM to "hint' about whats coming up.

 

My Scouting experience is :

Two brothers who were pulled by my parents after the SM had an alcohol+driving moment which meant I didn't get to join either. Reading the '72 or '76 Handbook (I'm not sure which it had a green cover and a Scout hiking on it) And the Last 30 days when my Boy said "Hey, I want to join this troop".

 

My Leadership experience: (without belaboring the point by going thru the whole thing) includes 21+ years leading or being led by Marines.

[Gonzo1]

Lisa,

Being an Eagle Scout probably means that the guy should have some mastery of basic skills. However, it doesn't necessarily makes him a good MANAGER like a CC. If you have an Eagle who refuses to get trained, tel him that it's required and that he'll get "refresher" training and be brought up to speed on current information. Tell him if he doesn't learn ANYTHING, you'll buy him lunch.

 

G

 

(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

[Beavah]

Yah, I think in some units and many scout camps, we teach some of da "bad Eagle leader" stuff by example, eh?

 

Be honest, how many of us have seen Scouters who are "pushy, bossy, and never-wrong-about-anything"? They're a pretty frequent occurrence in most districts and many troops. "I've dictated/read you a rule, you must follow it" is pretty common, eh? If that's the example and expectation we're setting, it isn't a surprise that's what we get as a leadership style from former Eagles.

 

Yah, to be honest, some of our military guys also get a bit two caught up in that kind of management style, too, eh?

 

Round here, "old" Eagles are also some of da worst when it comes to Leave-No-Trace camping ethics. Old dogs and new tricks I guess.

 

Beavah

 

[SR540Beaver]

A very good scouting buddy of mine used to be our District Training Chair. He is now the Council Vice Chair for Boy Scout training. He is an Eagle. He has lamented to me numerous times about how the hardest people to get to any training were Eagle Scouts because they had been there, done that and didn't need any training. He also pointed out as many others have that they knew the program from a boy perspective from 20+ years ago and had no idea of how the program operates today.

[theysawyoucomin']

Lisa,

I think this is a great thread you started! Great topic!

[resqman]

Hey! I resemble that remark. Earned my Eagle in '79. As a youth we were not allowed to use gas stoves or folding chairs. Nowadays youth only cook on a stove and most bring along the folding chair. Times they are a changin'

 

I have taken Cub, Webelos, and Boy scout leader position specific training, safety afloat, climb on safely, IOLS, Webelos Outdoor Skills, University of Scouting and attended a number of round tables. None of them were leadership classes.

 

While training will help leaders talk from a common playbook regarding youth protection, paperwork completion, and uniforming, I have not taken any that helped me to lead boys or parents.

 

Training is important but what is offered with possibly the exception of woodbadge, does not teach leadership.

 

Having the red, white & blue knot on my chest only means that I have some experience as a boy. It means I have a memory of a program that no longer exists. It means I have to forget much of what I know about scouting and learn all over again.