Wood Badge Ticket vs Eagle Projects

[eagle-pete]

This is just food for thought / fodder for discussion

 

I was reading one of the threads here and it sparked a thought of mine which I have had in the past and is a theory which I have heard, at least going around my local council, that says something like "a Wood Badge ticket is like doing 3 or 4 Eagle projects."

 

First of all, I should state that I am NOT an Eagle Scout, and so I am no authority on the efforts required to earn the rank. That being said, I have done some reading and have spoken with some Eagle Scouts about their projects and what it actually takes to earn the Eagle rank.

 

I have, however, completed my ticket for Wood Badge for the 21st Century and therefore I can speak first hand on that subject.

 

According to some sources (and some parents I have spoken to) the average rough estimate for an Eagle project is about 200 hours. This works out to be approximately 17 days @ 12 hours per day, or just over 2 weeks, assuming the scout devoted 12 hours each day he worked on the project.

 

Now, because I am an adult with a few more responsibilities than an average Boy Scout, I would estimate that I was able to dedicate 12 hours a week to work my ticket. That being the case, it would take me just over 16 weeks to complete an Eagle project which required 200 hours of work. If I did 3 or 4 of these project, that would be approximately 1 year of work, and, coincidentally, that is about how much time it took me to complete my Wood Badge ticket.

 

Now I am just doing the numbers, and I do realize there is a big difference between an adult working on a project vs a 16 year-old boy on a project. However, the theory does seem to hold true, at least by the numbers. Does anyone agree/disagree with the notion that a Wood Badge ticket is similar to doing 3 or 4 Eagle projects?

 

Anyone care to challenge my analysis or the concept in general. Personally, if this is a flawed theory, I would like to dispel the rumors.

 

Eagle Pete

[SueM]

Eagle Pete,

 

One of the main differences though when you're talking about hours spent on an Eagle project..that is total hours by EVERYONE who helped with the project, not just the Eagle candidate himself. For example, if he had 15 people working on the actual project work for 8 hours one day, that would translate into 120 hours. Then you add up his time spent researching, gathering materials and resources, etc. too.

 

Now I'm not equating my ticket to an Eagle project but just as an example..one of my ticket items was to take over as SM for a year. Let say I spent just 3 hours a week doing SM things for the troop..that's 156 hours just on one ticket item. This was my major ticket item though and the other 4 probably took anywhere from 10-20 or so hours each to accomplish. I wouldn't necessarily equate it with doing 3 or 4 Eagle projects..but maybe 2 might be more in line with what I think. I've seen some pretty simple Eagle projects as well as WB Ticket Items!!

 

Sue M.

[Lisabob]

One of the big differences I see is that many WB ticket items are designed to be carried out largely by the individual Woodbadger, although often with the buy-in of others (like the troop/pack committee), while Eagle projects expect/require much more clear-cut additional work from others.

[SueM]

Absolutely! That's kind of what I was trying to say, but doing a poor job of it!! If I also added in all the hours that the other troop leaders and the boys put in to helping me accomplish just that one ticket item..like you would for an Eagle project...it would probably add up to thousands of hours..

 

Sue M.

[John-in-KC]

There are three other, fundamental differences between an Eagle Leadership Service Project and a Woodbadge ticket item:

 

First...

The ELSP, from my experience, is designed to extract lessons of planning, coordination, and management. It is often the first time a young man has to think about a process in getting something from idea to completion.

 

The Woodbadger working his ticket items, I would hope, is generally an experienced adult. He or she has executed projects before in life. He or she can visualize and state the steps needed to make the project happen.

 

Second...

The ELSP is designed to have the Scout be the explicit leader. Others are looking to him for guidance. Though his team is ad hoc and will dissolve when the project is done, it is a new team.

 

Woodbadge ticket items may have the Scouter being an implicit leader, working inside a team. He is applying skills and expertise to an existing framework, not creating a new framework.

 

Third...

ELSPs, by advancement policy, "should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting."

 

Woodbadge ticket items by their very nature improve the unit, the District, and the local Council.

[tcherven]

John-in-KC - very well stated.

 

I don't know much about the Eagle Scout service project, but I understood exactly what you said. And even more importantly, it makes sense.

 

I always enjoy reading your posts - you have a lot of good ideas. (I feel like such a newbie alongside you and several others on this board.)

[evmori]

1st off, there is no minimum or maximum number of hours required by an Eagle Service Project.

 

The hours in an Eagle Service Project are all the hours of all the people who helped AND the Eagle candidate.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

LisaBob,

 

You are correct that many ticket items are written and done on an individual basis. As a Troop Guide this past Spetember, I really tried to "limit" my Owls on the number of individual ticket items they wrote. While Woodbadge teaches many things, it is a "leadership" course and I wanted them to exercise what they had learned and write tickets where they LED teams rather than do things by themselves. Scouters like anyone else, tend to just do things to get it done. Eventually, they burn out. I wanted them to learn to develop teams to get things done and share both the responsibility and the sense of accomplishment.

 

After all, isn't this what we expect out of the patrol method and don't we lead by example?

[eagle-pete]

Great responses to all!

 

Some of the things I wanted to explore on this topic, and which I believe have come out, are, can there be a direct correlation between Eagle projects and Wood Badge tickets? Are we just comparing apples to oranges here? Is it an over simplification to assert that a Wood Badge ticket is like 2 or 3 Eagle projects?

 

So far, the discussion is leaning toward the latter, however in sheer dedicated time, can it be said that a Wood Badge participant might devote similar hours to their ticket items as a boy scout might toward an Eagle project? It seems to me that this was the main rational which is lending ear to this notion.

 

Also, I wanted to clarify that my original meaning was to compare the Wood Badge ticket as a whole (all 5 ticket items) with an Eagle Service Project. Certainly, a typical ticket does comprise ticket items of varying complexities and involvement. I feel it is easier to look at the Wood Badge ticket (and perhaps more realistic) as a single project when comparing it to an Eagle project.

 

I also agree that the two have fundamental differences where structure, outcome, direction, and community are affected and benefited. Additionally, it has been pointed out that the boy scout should learn and come away from the experience with specific leadership skills and understanding, which is quite different than a Wood Badge participant would have, thus, the over simplification of the comparison.

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Eagle Pete

 

 

[Lisabob]

Pete, given all of the ways in which tickets and eagle projects differ (which you've summarized in your previous message) I am not certain if, or how, it makes a lot of sense to say that the two are comparable, or why you appear to be intent on pursuing this comparison, either? Is there a good reason to find arguments in favor of such a comparison (ie, are you trying to convince someone of the worth of wb or something like that)?

[EagleInKY]

John-in-KC gave a good overview of the differences.

 

I think we're comparing apples to oranges. For example, if I said winning a Presidential Election is similar to winning two NCAA Basketball Championships, you'd scratch your head and say "huh?". But there are similarities. They both require raising money, both require a dedicated fan base, both require lots of sweat and energy, both require you to be opened up to public scrutiny and unsolicited feedback, both require a game plan, and so forth. But even with all the similarities, they are two drastically different items.

 

When I look back on mine (and I've done both), the Eagle project seemed to be a much more daunting task. If I were to do them both today, maybe the ESLP would be easier. But given where I was in my personal development, the ESLP was, by far, the more challenging experience.

[fotoscout]

I never liked this comparison.

 

First you're comparing a youth's ability to get a task done vs. an adult's ability to get something done.

 

Next there are a whole set of rules that make an eagle project fairly complicated and involved. Not to mention the various adults that have to put their two cents into the project. Not the case with a WB ticket, it's just you and your ticket councilor.

 

Then there is the money thing. Although WB tickets shouldn't cost much money, no one really cares if you spend your life savings doing the ticket. Mom and Dad can't buy your Eagle Project, and you can't go soliciting money for the project.

 

For the most part Eagle projects across the country all approach the same level of performance and expectation. Not so with WB tickets. Tickets vary dramatically from person to person, and the expectations vary just a dramatically from ticket councilor to ticket councilor.

 

So it's just not a fair comparison. Ask any adult Eagle who has completed his WB ticket. He'll probably tell you that he worked much harder on his eagle project.

[John-in-KC]

Eagle in KY spoke words of pure gold when he said:

 

"When I look back on mine (and I've done both), the Eagle project seemed to be a much more daunting task. If I were to do them both today, maybe the ESLP would be easier. But given where I was in my personal development, the ESLP was, by far, the more challenging experience."

 

I'm not an Eagle. Didn't get there. Different story.

 

Think about it a second. A young man, doing his first major project, having to assert himself, having to plan, adjust, present, coordinate, find resources, and then LEAD. Heavens, yes, no matter how simple the project is, he is going to extract lesson after lesson! That's major muscle group stuff for a 13-17 year old

 

Completing the ELSP and completing it well should be a moment of victory for a young man. The EBOR, imo, is a true pinnacle of youth. It's a LIFELONG, DEFINING moment. It properly should rate with ones' Wedding day, or the birth of children.

 

I've had multiple defining moments in my life: I have to be honest, Woodbadge is important, but it does not rate as a defining moment.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[eagle-pete]

Lisabob

 

My intent?? Oh, you want to know what my intent is... ok.

 

I thought I made this clear in my opening post on the topic. Sorry if I wasn't very clear.

 

Let me explain by telling you how this came about. I was eating hotdogs at my beading ceremony, and just chatting with some of the folks who attended. We were discussing the Wood Badge ticket and what goes into working a properly crafted, and well meaning ticket. There were many who, either by parroting or by thinking through the process, came to the conclusion that a Wood Badge ticket could be compared, at least in time involvement, to 2 or 3 Eagle projects. I don't know that either I agreed or disagreed at the time.

 

It seems to me that the Eagle Rank is often used as a benchmark for many things in scouting which require significant effort. It becomes a clich that in order to measure the value of service, training, awards, etc., these are so often measured against the efforts necessary to earn the Eagle Rank.

 

I am neither condoning nor am I condemning the notion. I am not "intent on pursuing this comparison". I just brought this up as a topic to discuss.

 

I am also looking for specific examples of why this comparison is not valid, if indeed it isn't. I recognize that my opinions are just that, opinions. I don't typically spread unsubstantiated "facts". I try to validate my opinions, which is another reason for bringing up the topic here - seeking validation.

 

So far, everyone, including yourself, has reaffirmed what I originally believed (i.e., we're on the same side of this issue).

 

It's just a topic for discussion - probably not worthy of this forum. Be that as it may, if there are any valid points to be made, I am much obliged.

 

Eagle Pete

[Lisabob]

Hey Pete, I really didn't mean my previous post as an attack. Perhaps it came across a little too blunt. I just wasn't sure where you were coming from, or why. Now I do - thanks.

 

By the way in "my" WB class we agreed that all of us birds could flock together (even those who weren't lucky enough to be BOBWHITES!) so please feel welcome in the nest.

 

Lisa'bob