What is WB all about?

[Gonzo1]

This is about the only thing that BrentAllen and I disagree on.

I took WB in 1994, well before the current cirriculum of even having cub scout leaders participate.

When I took it, it was considered something like advanced scotmaster type training. It was afterall, Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge. It was something I looked forward to for a long time. It was a great experience and a life changing one too.

 

Should you go? Of course. My only concern is that there is / are several cub scout oriented courses that may be more appropriate for new cub scout leaders.

 

On the other hand (Ladyleader, here's where I get a little smart allecky) if WB is so good, why not scrap all other training and combine them with WB, make it all about a 2 week program, or go about 5 - 6 weekends and have eveyone get their beads. That's what is is all about anyway, right?, the totem? the songs? .........C'mon, get more appropriate training FIRST, then later, after you have developed a heft and feel for BSA, go to Wood Badge.

 

Here's another point, I know a SCOUTMASTER who went to WB as a cub leader, the guy doesn't know jack about being a scoutmaster. He doesn't know the basics about the Guide to Safe Scouting (G2SS). But, he has his beads. My personal opinion is that should have never been offered to cub leaders and that's why many people (including me) believe WB is being 'watered down'.

 

Sorry for upsetting some of you.

 

Gonzo1

Eagle Patrol

SR-59

 

[SueM]

>I took WB in 1994, well before the current cirriculum of ?>even having cub scout leaders participate.

>When I took it, it was considered something like advanced >scotmaster type training. It was afterall, Boy Scout Leader >Wood Badge. It was something I looked forward to for a long >time. It was a great experience and a life changing one too.

 

 

Ah...this explains a lot to me! WB is not advanced outdoor training...there are many outdoor skills training courses for both BS's and CS's including a specific Advanced Outdoor Skills course. Many "old school" WB'ers who have not had experience with the new course feel the same. We had one on staff at the last course..he came out of it feeling totally different!! WB 21st Century is leadership skill specific and designed to help you make the most of your position, no matter what it is...whether it's SM,CM, DL, ASM, Venturing, Committee Member or even on the District level. It's about the SCOUTING program in an overall sense. And even in 1994 there was a separate WB program for Cub Scout leaders! But combining them also helps them (among other things) understand what they are preparing the boys for as they cross over into the BS program.

 

While I agree that there are some totally "unworthy" (for lack of a better description!) WB'ers out there, they are the exception and not the rule!..and you're going to find those kind of people in ANY group! The value of those beads around your neck is not in the impression that they leave with others when they see them on you, but rather a reminder to yourself that no matter your skill level in life, you CAN make a difference in the life of a boy in some small way! And isn't that why we do this thing called Scouting in the first place??

 

Sue M

[John-in-KC]

Ms SueM (Scouter, Beaver, and Staffer) wrote in part:

 

The value of those beads around your neck is not in the impression that they leave with others when they see them on you, but rather a reminder to yourself that no matter your skill level in life, you CAN make a difference in the life of a boy in some small way! And isn't that why we do this thing called Scouting in the first place??

 

Sue, that is one of the most valuable statements about why adults serve in Scouting I've ever seen. Thank you!

 

[Gonzo1]

SueM

Ah, it explains a lot to me too!

In my opinion, WB SHOULD be what it was, not what it is. As I understand it, the program is being watered down. When I first heard about WB 21st Century, the program was 'advertised' as indoors and seminars only, no outdoor experience. First and second year cub leaders don't have enough experience. For that matter, first and second year Boy Scout leaders don't either.

 

BTW, there was not a cub scout leader WB program, it was a cub scout trainer WB as someone has pointed out in another thread.

 

The course I had had outdoors skills (which for me were too basic anyway, I'm an Eagle Scout and found too many novices there too), mat also had leadership and management skills training. Most of our classes went until 10:00 pm. Nearly all of the course - 3 weekends, not 2, was conducted outdoors. We had some of the touchy feely stuff about feelings, too.

 

Let's see, preparing the boy for Boy Scouts? How about having the Webelos II do the requirements for the Arrow of Light. Have a fun program that gets them outdoors.

 

I agree that there are 'unworthy' or incompetent WB'ers, like there are incompetent people in many positions or prefessions.

 

I suppose many of us will not agree on this subject and many others too. Just because a program (or rule) exists today does not in my opinion mean that is necessarily should.

 

BTW, I think many things in BSA should be the way they were, like having tougher requirement for rank and merit badges. Not changing the wording in the Arrow of Light requirements to put the word "mosque" before church. I'm not against anyone going to a mosque, the main change was the order of the places of worship. What's the idea? Are they trying to get us used to saying mosque? What BS!

Check: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/arrowoflight.html and click on "To see the the changes which were made in 2003"

 

[ladyleader]

Hi all,

 

I'm supposed to be packing for a road trip to VA for Thanksgiving, BUT I just had to reply to all the wonderful advice.

 

Eagle Pete has indeed sold me on it. Man, you have a way with words! I want all those things he mentioned. I want to have the knowledge and confidence to facilitate what I've learned. I need the camraderie of being part of a team where they think of others before themselves and "go the distance".

 

Will has made a good point about ticket items. I wear a few hats in our pack and to be honest, I most enjoy the Advancement hat that I wear. Although I like being a den leader, I get just as much satisfaction out of planning advancement ceremonies and having the knowledge of the advancement process.

 

I'm definately going to have many hours of pondering time on my way down to VA. I will think about what all of you have said and I'll touch base upon my return. Have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving.

[BrentAllen]

Gonzo,

My dad went through WB in 1979 - he would probably say your course was watered down! :-)

Some of it is perspective, some of it is changing the goals of WB.

 

I don't see it as watered down, but changing to meet the needs of today's leaders. I took the week-long summer course, and we were rarely in the sack before midnight. It was one of the busiest weeks I have ever spent in camp, with hardly any down time.

 

Instead of taking others words about the course being watered down, why not attend it and see for yourself? "Old" Wood Badgers are allowed to take the new course, and if you want to be considered for staff, you now have to attend 21st Century WB. I'm staffing the summer course at Bert Adams - come on out and attend!

[SueM]

Gonzo1,

 

Just as a clarification..Though there is a lot of classroom work, it's true, there is certainly an element of outdoor skills in WW-21st. The 2nd weekend is meant to be a backpacking experience. The patrols have to plan the whole thing by themselves...backpack in all the equipment they'll need, cook and eat meals at their campsites and also FIND their campsites using a map & compass or other ways. What we did was to go in with handheld GPS systems and determined the coordinates for each campsite..then also added other waypoints to lead them on a journey to various places where they'd need to be over the course of the weekend and program them into the GPS's...like where the bathhouse was, where the interfaith service would be held, etc. Each patrols trail was different but the same and they crisscrossed each others' paths so no one could start out knowing where their camp would be. They ended up then at their discreetly marked campsite. They had to carry their backpacks for the whole trail, which took about an hour or so. Each patrol is mixed so that there are Boy Scouter and Cub Scouters as much as possible so that they can all learn from the experience..either through teaching or learning. Most of even the experienced Boy Scout leaders didn't know how to use the GPS systems so it was a way to teach them a new skill too. We even set out some geocaches for them to look for in their free time if they so desired.

 

And btw..I do agree with you on the watered down MB & rank advancement requirements! I am trying to deal with boys who came in the troop on the "gimme" system and they don't want to do any work for anything!!

 

Sue M.

[Gonzo1]

Brent,

As you know, this is probably the ONLY thing we disagree on, right?

I already have preconceived ideas about WBY2K, and despite being self employed, I can't take a week off.

 

I'm an Eagle, been ASM, SM, ASM again, Unit Commissioner, WDL. I served for 24 years in the military both enlisted and officer and was an Aide to a Brigadier General and I was an Executive Officer of a surgical unit in an Army hospital. The point is...... I know how to lead people.

 

No offense personally to any of you, especially Brent, SueM and LadyLeader (even Fuzzy, Merlyn, etc......) I'm not sure what more I could gain. I've found the most important thing about "working the ticket" is to continue developing and working 'tickets' for myself. I serve on staff for Boy Scout Leader Outdoor Skills training. BTW, I'd enjoy 'observing' at Bert Adams.

 

All the best,

Gonzo

[GNX Guy]

Gonzo1 Wrote: "Ah, it explains a lot to me too!

In my opinion, WB SHOULD be what it was, not what it is. As I understand it, the program is being watered down. When I first heard about WB 21st Century, the program was 'advertised' as indoors and seminars only, no outdoor experience. First and second year cub leaders don't have enough experience. For that matter, first and second year Boy Scout leaders don't either. "

 

 

 

So the fact that I'm a 2nd year leader in Cub Scouts, I must not have the experience. Guess the 7 years I spent in Boy Scouts was a waste, eh???

 

 

[Gonzo1]

GNX Guy......

Guess the 7 years I spent in Boy Scouts was a waste, eh???

 

That's not what I said, did I. I said that IMO WB should be for boy Scout leaders. I've been ASM in 3 troops, SM, Unit Commissioner and now I am WDL. I was SM when I went to WB. Be clear about reading this, there were no cub scout or Explorers/Sea Scout/ Venturing or Varsity people there. It was for Boy Scout leaders.

 

I didn't run the program, they didn't ask me when they wanted to change the program, I would have said NO!!!! It seems BSA makes changes for the sake of making changes. Kinda like "Quality Unit", it will be something else for the next for years and probably something else after that.

 

BTW, why didn't you go when you were a Boy Scout leader? Eh?

 

[GNX Guy]

Gonzo1

 

I quoted your post and you did say that 1st and 2nd year Cub and Boy Scout Leaders don't have enough experience.

 

Also, I said "when I was in Boy Scouts", ie. I was a kid in the program and got my Eagle. I did not say When I was a Boy Scout Leader.

 

Thank you for your Military service, I too had a very special assignment, to the Pentagon, OCSA Army 3C509, Was assigned to the Chief of Staff of the Army, 4 Star, General Wickam. My Roomate was the Command Sergeant Major of the Army's Assistant. We both lived at Ft. Myer, VA. Home of the Old Guard.

 

[Gonzo1]

GNS Guy,

Thank you too for your service.

 

What I'm asying is that when a person comes in off the street and is a cub scout leader, that person may not have enough experience to fully appreciate WB, to know the outdoor skills, etc.

 

Sure, some outdoors person from the YMCA might be able to fake 'till he can make it, I'm saying leave it the way it was.

 

Obviously, we're going to disagree here. If you had been to the other course, you might agree, maybe not.

 

There are many things I'd like to change, but I'm not trying to change things like Brianbuff wants to. I'm saying don't change for the sake of change. Wow, the calendar went from 1999 to 2000, so let's turn over the apple cart!

 

As for LadyLeader, it appears her plate might be full, she said she's "Wolf den leader, Advancement chair, Popcorn Kernel and on District committee" That's a bunch for anyone, especially someone new.

 

The program won't go away, get some experience, go later.

 

G

[BrentAllen]

Gonzo,

Just wanted to get a couple of more swings on this dead horse.. :-)

 

I honestly believe the following are the results of my attending WB in 2004, as an Asst. Cubmaster and then moving up to CM. Understand we had an excellent Pack in place already so these improvements were kind of like going from an A to an A+, which is much harder than going from a C to an A:

 

Pack went from around 90 boys to 120 boys.

Popcorn sales went from $16,500 to $26,000.

Pack went from waist-up uniform to full uniform.

Camping attendance went from around 45% to 75%.

Trained leaders went from just a handful in the Pack to every den (11) having a Trained DL and nearly all have a Trained ADL.

BALOO trained leaders went from 1 to 6.

Our Webelos II's used to visit one Troop and go on one Troop campout. Now they visit 3 Troops and go on campouts with all 3.

 

We held our first overnight District Webelos Woods since anyone can remember. (I'm also District Activities Chair).

We are working to make our District Awards Banquet bigger, better and more exciting, to draw a larger crowd - a work in progress.

 

Like most Scouters, I wear many hats. I started with ADL, then ACM, then CM. After WB came District Activities Chair, Scouters' Academy Steering Committee Cub Scout Chair, and Council Long Term Strategic Planning Committee - Cub Scout Advancement. I serve as a Den Guide at Day Camp, and put together the Webelos Woods campout mentioned earlier.

 

There is no way I could have done the above without WB training - especially the changes in the Pack. Now, if I had to wait until I was a Boy Scout leader, we could erase all those results - would that be a good idea?

 

I totally agree with you about the outdoor training needed to be a Boy Scout leader. I know they get some of that through SLT, but it sounds like there could be more added (I'm attending that training in Feb.). My suggestion would be to leave WB the way it is, and come up with another course similar to Powderhorn for SM's and ASM's. In another thread a member (SR540Beaver, I think) mentioned their Council was offering such a course, and it sounded very good.

A Troop may have Committee Members (CC, Treas, Sect, etc...) who would benefit from the leadership and management taught in WB but don't need the outdoor training.

 

Everything I have put into the Pack paid off yesterday in a simple conversation with a mother of a 2nd Grader at our school. She said they had missed the boat signing up for Cub Scouts at the start of the year, and she had hoped her son would forget about it after awhile. Her quote was something like "... but his friends in the Pack are having so much fun and are so excited about Scouts they are always talking about it, he keeps begging me to join." That has been my number one goal from the start - to make Scouting so exciting that other boys will hear about it from their friends, and will beg their parents to join. I owe that to WB, because it taught me that anything is possible with the proper leadership and planning. Not everyone attending WB may get that same message, but I sure did!

[Gonzo1]

Brent,

Maybe the Fast Start and New Leader Essentials could have more added to them. Maybe something else could be changed.

 

I know this is an uphill battle for me, so I guess I'll stop swinging at this horse, at least for now.

 

My son (Web II) will move up soon and will be joining a different troop than the one he would normally feed into. The COR has asked me to become SM soon, so I too will continue to apply WB training.

One of the scouts (Second Class) said they primarily camp at Scoutland at Camp Rainy Mountain. I'll be changing that from the start. Seems fairly well boy led, so only a few adjustments may be necessary to improve things there.

 

All the best,

G

[CeeJayRocker]

Here's the problem with this discussion. WB is not about scouting skills. It used to be, and other courses have taken over . . . WB is about leadership. It's taught in a outdoor setting, although not in every council. It's taught with outdoor themes . . . Make no mistake (to borrow an admonishment) . . . WB is about leadership, and it can be applied in any setting, at any level in scouting, and in any avocation . . . .