Flag etiquitte

[wmjivey]

While going through my first weekend of WB we were all assembled on Gilwell's field for the Flag ceremony. As the U.S. Flag was raised, I being our Patrol standard bearer lowered the banner straight out in front me in salute. Others holding the various banners did a clumsy salute while holding the banner. After the ceremony I approached the Cadre and inform them of the proper etiquitte for all other banners to be dipped in salute. I was informed the BSA is not a military organization and I was giving a military opinion on proper Flag etiquitte. Am I wrong? If not where can I find the proper proof for the Cadre?

Thanks

John "Eaglet in Training" Ivey

[kdmill_1]

They're correct. There's no special requirement in BSA for patrol flags during the raising of the USA flag. That's not to say you were "wrong" for bringing your patrol flag out to horizontal salute, just that it's not a BSA requirement. BSA even has in writing a prohibition on military drill other than for special situations such as flag ceremonies specifically to prevent the para-military appearance. So for us veteran types is sometimes hard to swallow the informality of some ceremonies.

BTW, humble birds stay close to the ground:) Bobwhites SR-73.

[Gonzo1]

As a veteran also, I sometimes cringe at boy led and adult led flag ceremonies.

 

I've never seen patrol flags dip to the Nation Ensign, but that doesn't mean it can't. As long as everyone is the same, I think you'll be OK.

 

Maybe a 90 degree salute is impractical, but I'm sure you've seen some military flag ceremonies where the other flags are dipped about 15 degrees. That would be much eaier for youth.

 

One thing you might consider is drafting a regulation, and then pass it up the "chain of command" for a ticket item, but that's just a suggestion.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

As an owl I spent the weekend with a number of those lower on the food chain at Camp Wakpominee.

 

What about teaching the boys to hold the patrol flag like a guidon and touch the left forefinger to the pole as a salute, heck we salute the flag.

 

When I was a Den leader at every den meeting I'd have 12 boys stand in a rank and do "dress right DRESS.READY FRONT!Lined up and it let them know the opening had started. They liked it. and it is specifically allowed.

[Trevorum]

The US military has a lot of traditions and protocols. That's fine, but those traditions and protocols should not be imported wholesale into BSA. We're separate from the military. We're different. We salute the same flag, but not necessarily in the same way.

 

Active duty personnel may cringe at BSA traditions and ceremonies; I cringe at camo-wearing adults leading boys in U-rah cheers.

[purcelce]

kdmill_1 and Trevorum,

 

Your answers are correct, excellent and I totally agree with them.

 

From a retired USAF MSgt and a good ole Bobwhite.

 

Cary P

[Vicki]

OK, you veterans out there, let me relate a short-hand version of something that happened at a summer camp I attended just this past summer. I really want to hear your opinions.

 

The troop I currently serve has a serious lack of veterans (my older son's troop has at least two Marines, 'nuff said). There were no campsite flagpoles. We approached the CD about using the paradeground flags and poles to complete the requisite requirements for our younger scouts. He said fine. Next thing we know a grizzled old WWII vet had read the CD the riot act and then followed the CD out to tell us that what we were doing was totally inappropriate, that we had desecrated the flag and surrendered the field to any enemy that might have been present - once the camp flag is up, it stays up.

 

In spite of the fact that all this happened in front of the scouts, troop leadership was very cool about it, said they would get the BSA book on flags and read it. I was left to continue soothing ruffled feathers (I'm not quite sure why, other than I've dealt with a lot of military types in my time - DH in the Navy - maybe it showed).

 

But I really felt that the vet way over-reacted and he did eventually agree that perhaps he did. A quiet conversation between him and the leadership present would have sufficed.

 

OTOH, I would certainly be the last to want to commit an egregious violation of flag etiquette. I believe in what the flag represents. I think I can also guarantee that we will NEVER ask to use the paradeground again.

 

What do y'all think?

Thanks,

Vicki

[Gonzo1]

LCDR Vicki,

I assume CD is camp director?

 

The old timer should have taken any issue to your leadership or camp leadership.

 

By using the paradeground flags, did you use the American Flag? If so, IMO this is a non-issue. you didn't actaually dessecrate the flag, did you? I think not.

 

What enemy would you have been surrending to? I think the old timer was out of line for saying anything in front of your scouts.

 

Gonzo

CPT, USAR, Ret

[eagle-pete]

It continues to amaze me how many Scout Leaders don't know where to find official BSA flag etiquette.

 

The BSA follows U.S. Code Title 4 which outlines flag use for the United States Flag.

 

U.S. Code Title 4

http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title4/chapter1_.html

 

BSA Flag Use Instructions

http://www.scouting.org/media/flag/01.html

 

Eagle Pete

[Vicki]

Well, yeah, Eagle Pete, and I've read it before. Nowhere does it say anything about practicing ceremonies or where/how/when to do them. So by omission I assumed we were OK. But there is a huge chasm between what is actually in writing and what can be assumed by its absence. Hence my question.

 

Where there's a campsite flagpole, it's easy. You run the scouts through in teams for flag raising and lowering and they all get a chance to fulfill the requirement. To be honest, this was the first camp I'd been to that didn't have campsite flagpoles. Sheltered, I guess.

 

Vicki

[eagle-pete]

Vicki

 

My apologies. I did not intend to infer that you were ignorant of proper flag etiquette. I posted the links for the benefit of anyone who may want to use them as their resource. It just seems to come up quite often, mostly in Cub Scouts where leaders are attempting introduce flag ceremonies to the younger boys and want to perform a proper ceremony.

 

My personal interpretation of U.S. Code Title 4 in regards to conducting flag ceremonies is the ceremony should be done in a dignified, respectful manner, and should conform to any of the rules outlined in Title 4. As long as this is adhered to, the ceremony is acceptable.

 

I have seen and participated in many, many flag ceremonies. Some have been better than others. But as long as they are dignified ceremonies they are acceptable. I have even stopped a ceremony we were performing when I was a Cubmaster during its presentation when I felt the boys were goofing off and not showing proper respect.

 

There are many differing opinions about how a flag ceremony is to be performed. But all of them, when showing proper respect for the colors, and following the U.S. Code for flag presentation, are perfectly acceptable. Some of my personal preferences are (1) I expect any youth or adult who wishes to perform the ceremony to be in uniform. (2) I expect the audience to be as quiet as possible during the ceremony. (3) If multiple flags are used in the ceremony, and the flag bearers come to the front of the audience from different directions, causing the flags to cross, I have the American flag cross in front (toward the audience) of other flags. (4) I have the pledge repeated while the flag bearers are still holding the flags (before posting), and therefore, the bearers do not salute. (5) I normally have the American flag posted first, before other flags.

 

These are just some of my preferences, and none of them violate Title 4 of the U.S. Code. Perhaps the gentleman at your camp might object to how I conduct a flag ceremony, but unless he could show that his objections are directly in violation of the Code, I do not see how he can justify them.

 

It sounds more like he may have been trying to "raise a stink" and in an attempt to validate his objections he made some rather irrational accusations. He may also have had his own agenda, perhaps a war vet trying to demonstrate his loyalty to his country or something, I don't really know.

 

In any case, I believe you did the right thing, and I do not believe you did anything which dishonored the American flag or your country.

 

Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

[Vicki]

Thanks for the reply, E-P. Didn't mean to sound over-sensitive. Really dislike that about e-mail:

[Vicki]

Gonzo - oh my, no, not Lieutenant Commander, I assume that was a joke I didn't get? Yes, I meant Camp Director.

 

V

[SSScout]

...Cub Scout Day Camp...

 

...Scoutcraft Pavilion...

 

... It's "Flag Day"...

 

... My partner and I have mounted a flag pole on the corner of the shelter (otherwise known as a picnic shelter)...

 

24 Cubs in a Den, 8 American flags, two state flags, two parade poles.

 

We practice the art of American Flag folding ( is this the only national flag with a special folding routine? I know of no other). We practice parade position, stage position, Color Guard routines, all in less than an hour. My partner and I talk about the Flags history and design. What do the strips represent? How many stars? Which star is Marylands? Yes, all stars are equal that way. We run the flag up and down the flag pole at least 8 times, and practice square knot tying too along the way. We practice a basic 'meeting opening flag cermony and then...

 

Now, I take the opportunity to stretch the Cubs minds, many parent Den walkers standing in the background. Our home Pack and Troop have Scouts whose religion will not allow them to say the "pledge". (more on that later), so we ask the Cubs "what would you think if you saw someone NOT repeat the "pledge of allegiance? Can you think of any reasons why someone might not say it?"

Answer from Cubs #1: "They might be a terrorist" #2: "Maybe they don't speak english." Not once during the day did anyone give what to me was the two obvious answers ('course, I'm an adult) #1 They might be from a foreign country or #2 (from our personal experience) it might be against their religion. So we suggested those possibilities to the Cubs and then suggested that if they see this happen, they speak to the person afterward, that they might have an interesting conversion about it. We had several parents come up and thank us for our mention of such a thing. No one chastised us about it.

 

So being respectful to our national emblem is a multi dimensional thing.

 

YiS

 

 

[eagle-pete]

Excellent example, SSScout

 

And, may I add, this also looks like a perfect project for a diversity ticket item!

 

Eagle Pete