The "old" WB course?

[scoutmom111]

Having only been out of WB practical for 2 weeks, I can already see that we will never stop doing tickets... the 5 is just to get us rolling. Our CD didn't allow us any "for self" tickets, at least not in our patrol. I can't vouch for any other patrol (okay, has anyone read Heinlein about the professional witnesses!) Everyone of my tickets had to pertain to my position as adv. Chair. That doesn't mean that I won't do other things where I see the need. Right now, I'm not the one to suggest anything to the training people at council.

 

But at camp next year... hummmmm..... I did several of their databases last year and I am concidered a resource... hummm... how can I get ahold of the syllibus for the outdoor portion.... hummm ...

 

My main thought here is that I can get our adult leaders to take the scout skill class, and maybe get them into further training from there. My scout skills are okay... I still have to think the bowline...(but my tauntline hitch was the fastest at OA ordeal when we put up the tents) and measuring a tree I have to look at the directions (on the ground orienteering I am good at due to geocaching sites).

 

Okay, it will only take an hour a week to put this one together!!!

 

Mama Bear

[Kudu]

emb021 writes:

 

Your description of the awarding of WB beads (which I am familiar with), AFAIK, only occurred during the early years of WB, and was soon replaced with the method that we are familiar with today

 

Combining the two courses is probably common, but in some Scouting associations you can take just the Theoretical course and be awarded the one bead Wood Badge. Do you know of any other country in the world that has traded the Wood Badge outdoor skills for The One Minute Manager?

 

Things are not static. Things change. And not all changes are wrong.

 

The only "wrong" I am working to correct is the lack of choice Americans have in Scouting.

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

I didn't make myself as clear as I thought.

 

I understood you the first time OGE :-)

 

The way I see Wood Badge for the 21rst Century is that BSA designed it so it would give organizational and leadership skills to every adult who was associated with a troop.

 

We teach boys how to camp not so much because they need outdoor skills to get by in life, but because learning these skills in a Patrol in the woods seems to foster citizenship. Likewise Baden-Powell taught outdoor skills in Wood Badge because working together as a Patrol in the woods teaches adults something about how Scouting works. I was the course director for our Council's Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills for three years, and it is simply not the same thing.

 

I arrived at Wood Badge with the 11 Leadership Skills already memorized, and with a pretty good theoretical understanding of the "Eight Methods" of Scouting. But it was not until one chilly autumn night with the smell of wood smoke in the air that I heard the Eagle Patrol singing in the distance and something "clicked." For the first time in my life I "understood" the Patrol Method. This was not a theoretical understanding.

 

In a perfect world everyone associated with a Troop (and District and Council) would be on the same page after training. I'm just saying that I prefer Baden-Powell's method, which is to award those who only need the leadership and organizational skills the one bead "Theoretical" Wood Badge, and to award those who have also participated in the outdoor course the two bead Theoretical + Practical Wood Badge.

 

SR540Beaver wrote:

 

Someone took the outing out of Scouting?

 

Yes, in 1972. The 1972 Scout Handbook is a real hoot. As Jeff points out, it was a complete disaster and William Hillcourt was brought out of retirement to put the outing back in Scouting. Unfortunately he was not allowed to put the outing back in Patrol Leader Training! And now, 30 years later, they have taken the outing out of Wood Badge.

 

I'm not trying to change the BSA, just to remind people that there are other ways to run Wood Badge. This is difficult to do in a country whose government restricts its citizens to only one Scouting corporation. If Congress granted McDonald's a similar monopoly on dining, then we would tend to think that broiled hamburgers are "old fashioned" and unworkable in the 21st century, and that because "things change" and we have no choice, then fried hamburgers must be the inevitable result of progress and modernization.

 

Indoor One Minute Manager Wood Badge seems to delight most American Scouters, but a very small niche market might prefer a form of Wood Badge invented by an old guy named Baden-Powell.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Lisabob]

Scoutmom, I notice you are in Lansing. Let me recommend that you check out the various councils in your area besides your own. Great Sauk Trail (Livingston/Washtenaw and a smidgen of some other counties) holds their University of Scouting on Nov 4th. I know they have some outdoor skills - oriented offerings available. Tall Pines Council (Genesee County and parts north) and Clinton Valley Council (Oakland, Macomb) also have University of Scouting coming up. All of these are good resources if you aren't particularly happy with your own council's offerings.

 

Here are some links to the above council homepages:

 

 

Great Sauk Trail: http://www.gstcbsa.org/newsite/

Tall Pines Council: http://www.gfn.org/tpc/index.html

Clinton Valley Council: http://www.cvc-bsa.org/

 

Lisa'bob

[emb021]

"Combining the two courses is probably common, but in some Scouting associations you can take just the Theoretical course and be awarded the one bead Wood Badge. Do you know of any other country in the world that has traded the Wood Badge outdoor skills for The One Minute Manager? "

 

Maybe in some countries they do it that way, doesn't mean we have to. I DO feel that participants who complete the theortical part of the course get something more substantial then to just wear the participant neckerchief. All I got was a pocket card. The people on the course I staffed didn't get that, AFAIK (and they should have). At most they got the special course coin. Currently in the UK they give them a pin to wear.

 

Also, as far as I can see, we did not trade outdoor skills for the One Minute Manager (OMM). I'm familiar with the OMM. Have a copy at my desk at work. I do not see any elements from the OMM in WB. Are you confusing Situational Leadership & Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model for OMM? They aren't the same. SL, TDM/TLM are widely used leadership concepts used by both companies and non-profits. (my fraternity uses them in our leadership development programs as well).

 

""Things are not static. Things change. And not all changes are wrong."

 

"The only "wrong" I am working to correct is the lack of choice Americans have in Scouting. "

 

Sorry, but AFAIK, B-P himself wanted only ONE Scout Association per country. He only relutantly gave in for countries like France who have different associations broken down by religious background. I have NEVER felt that having more then one scouting association was a good thing. I have my issues with the BSA, but I don't agree that setting up so-called 'traditional scouting' programs that want to ignore 100 years of development in camping, psychology, social change, leadership, etc, is a good thing. And I have to think that B-P would agree. If someone wants to do a more traditional scouting program, they can doing it with the BSA.

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>But it was not until one chilly autumn night with the smell of wood smoke in the air that I heard the Eagle Patrol singing in the distance and something "clicked." For the first time in my life I "understood" the Patrol Method. This was not a theoretical understanding.

[BrentAllen]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I did receive one bead upon completion of the week-long part of my WB course (92-47, AAC, summer of 2004, Camp Woodruff). I wore it hanging from my right shirt pocket, as instructed, until I completed my ticket.

 

I have my February, 1973 edition of the Scout Handbook, from my youth. Sorry, but I just don't see where the "out" was taken out of Scouting. Somebody sure forgot to tell our Troop! The very first words in the book are as follows:

You In Scouting

Your tent glows for a moment in a flash of lightening. You hear the patter of rain and the far-off rumble of thunder. The fury of the storm is over. It was rough for awhile, but your tent is still up. Your blankets are dry. You sleep.

You wake up to a bright sun warming your tent. The smell of breakfast drifts in. You look out the front and quickly wake your buddy to see a deer drinking at the pond.

The others in your patrol are already up. They are by the fire kidding the cooks. These are your best friends. You want to do things with them. And you do, because they are in your Scout patrol.

 

Hardly sounds anti-outdoors to me, but maybe I am missing something.

 

Kudu writes "Do you know of any other country in the world that has traded the Wood Badge outdoor skills for The One Minute Manager?"

A lot of countries have combined Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, which I believe B-P was against. Do you hold them in similar disdain for changing B-P's original program?

 

My WB course included some of the instruction from the first course - patrol method, rotating patrol leadership, camping, cooking, etc...

 

Details from the very first Wood Badge Course:

The men were organized into three patrols, each one taking his turn as patrol leader, "second," "bottom" and the other turns in the order of patrol jobs, including cooking. Although in some camp schemes a late lunch was the big meal of the day, Gidney scheduled the main meal in the evening, to insure no one missed any of the Scoutcraft instruction.

 

The program of the first course was summarized by Gidney:

Syllabus of Work

 

Troop Organisation. - Patrols formed - Practiced calls, etc. - Drill with staves - Troop formation - Patrol formation on the march (by day and night) -- Scouts' pace --Typical investiture - "Erogonyama" chorus -- -How to "break" the flag -- Camp hygiene -- physical exercises (the six from "Scouting for Boys").

 

Campcraft -- (a) Campsites. Selection -- Sanitation -- Fires -- Pitching and Striking camps (b) Camp expedients. Illuminations Kitchen Implements -- Beds and sleeping appliances -- Personal comforts -- Camp tidiness Tent expedients -- Miscellaneous.

 

Pioneering. -- (a) Axmanship - Felling Use of crosscut saw, wedges, grindstone -- Use care of knife. (b) Construction.Rope and trestle bridge building across water -- Simple and swinging derrick -- Use of tackle.

 

Woodcraft. - (a) Birds and animals. -- Those found in the locality, their habits and uses -- Use of Nature notebook. (b) Trees, - How to identify them near to and far off during four seasons -- How to get the Scout keen on the subject.

 

Signcraft. (a) Signaling Hand Whistle -- Smoke - How to teach Semaphore and Morse Pitfalls to avoid. (b) Nature trails. © Sand tracking (carried out by the Chief Scout).

 

Games. -- (a) Scouting.Description and actual playing of each type. (b) Camp. - Played for one hour each day.

 

Fieldwork. -- (a) Measurements.Personal Distances -- Heights Areas River Widths. (b) Mapping. How to read making sketch maps. Prismatic compass Panoramic drawing Reports.

 

Study Circle Work. - (a) "Aids to Scoutmastership," (b) Headquarters "Book of Rules." © "Rules for Rover Scouts and Wolf Cubs," (d) "Our Aims, Methods and Needs." (e) "Sunday and the Scout."

 

Pathfinding. - Patrols sent out separately with sealed orders to from various points across Epping Forest, for eight-hour stretch - Leaf collecting - Report of journey - Sketch map of trek - Panoramic drawing from given point,

 

Kudu - is it your suggestion that Wood Badge teach all of the above?

 

[Kudu]

emb021 writes:

 

Are you confusing Situational Leadership & Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model for OMM?

 

Perhaps. It was my understanding that Situational Leadership was first introduced by Ken Blanchard in the One Minute Manager series, and that the BSA pays a royalty to Blanchard for its use in Wood Badge.

 

Maybe in some countries they do it that way, doesn't mean we have to.

 

My point is that as a monopoly, the BSA prevents Americans from having the freedom to make that choice.

 

Sorry, but AFAIK, B-P himself wanted only ONE Scout Association per country.

 

Yes, after 200 Scoutmasters from the London area rose up on December 3, 1909 against the autocratic hierarchy of Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts Association as it was run in his absence (he was still in the army). This led to the establishment of the Christian UK Scouting association, The British Boy Scouts.

 

He only relutantly gave in for countries like France who have different associations broken down by religious background.

 

Scouting is divided by religious background in the United States as well. The BSA has declared itself to be a religious organization, and it describes itself as "faith-based," the code word often used by fundamentalist Christians who advocate discrimination along the same lines as the BSA. To join the BSA you must also sign a religious statement affirming the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and that the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary for the "best type of citizenship." If you refuse because your religious background leads you to reject these religious values as repugnant, then currently our government establishes religion with the power to bar you from Scouting.

 

I have NEVER felt that having more then one scouting association was a good thing.

 

I know people who express similar loyalties to McDonald's french fries, Pepsi, and Microsoft software.

 

I have my issues with the BSA,

 

Obviously nothing insurmountable :-)

 

I don't agree that setting up so-called 'traditional scouting' programs that want to ignore 100 years of development in camping, psychology, social change, leadership, etc, is a good thing.

 

Scouting is a game, and fortunately you don't need to be current in the last 100 years of psychology, social change, and leadership theory to take a couple of Patrols into the woods to play games based on semaphore, Morse code, tracking, stalking, following Woodcraft trail signs, and preparing them for their First Class Journey. It's one of those "timeless values" things :-/

 

If someone wants to do a more traditional scouting program, they can doing it with the BSA.

 

That is like joining a baseball team to play cricket.

 

Kudu

[emb021]

""Are you confusing Situational Leadership & Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model for OMM?

 

"Perhaps. It was my understanding that Situational Leadership was first introduced by Ken Blanchard in the One Minute Manager series, and that the BSA pays a royalty to Blanchard for its use in Wood Badge."

 

Nope.

 

A little history on Situational Leadership (SL).

 

SL was developed by Paul Hersey & Ken Blanchard back in the 1960. This was put forth in their book "Management of Organizational Behavior: Leading Human Resources" (now in its 8th edition in 2000). Each of them would go their own direction with SL. Paul Hersey formed his "Center for Leadership Studies", which provides SL training. Ken Blanchard started his own company, and extended SL as "SLII". He would co-author "Leadership and the OMM" in the OMM series as a general introduction to SLII. But SL and the OMM concept should not be confused. Blanchard has since extended SL to apply to teams (which he calls "Highly Performing Teams" and introduced in "The OMM Builds Highly Performing Teams") and to individuals (in "Self Leadership and the OMM"). Blanchard's company provides training in SLII, HPT, Situational Self Leadership and the like.

 

 

""He only relutantly gave in for countries like France who have different associations broken down by religious background.

 

"Scouting is divided by religious background in the United States as well."

 

Not like it is in France, when there are separate scouting associations for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other religious groups. In the US, ALL these groups are part of the BSA.

 

"The BSA has declared itself to be a religious organization, and it describes itself as "faith-based," the code word often used by fundamentalist Christians who advocate discrimination along the same lines as the BSA."

 

And the BSA is wrong to do this.

 

"To join the BSA you must also sign a religious statement affirming the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and that the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary for the "best type of citizenship." If you refuse because your religious background leads you to reject these religious values as repugnant, then currently our government establishes religion with the power to bar you from Scouting."

 

Such an intepretation is incorrect, and I feel WOSM backs me on this. ALL scouts must subscribe to some religious belief. What that belief is up to the scout to decide. There is no list of approved religions, and just looking at the list of those that have BSA-approved religious awards includes several that DON'T use the term "GOD".

 

People who get worked up about this on both sides of the issue are wrong.

 

 

[Eamonn]

Jeffrey,

I took Wood Badge back in the early 70's at Gilwell Park -I had fun and learned a lot.

I took The Cub Scout Trainer course in the 80's I had fun and learned a lot.

I have staffed both courses and had fun and learned a lot.

I have staffed and directed the new course and yes I've had fun and learned a lot.

Back when I was a Lad I was an alter boy, the Mass was in Latin, I enjoyed being an Alter Boy, I had fun and learned a lot.

My Grandparents never did like the Mass in English, they went every week and said the Rosary. Having the mass said in English was a big change, it took a little getting used too. But I got used to it and think I'm a more active participant than when it was in Latin.

A local church once a month has the Mass in Polish, I don't understand Polish, still I understand what's going on.

I'm a big Wood Badge fan, but lets not get carried away it's a training course, some courses will be better than others some people will get more out of the course than others, some might get nothing.

Near the end of this new course the CD is supposed to inform the participants and staff that training never ends.

Go to the course have fun, learn what you can. But don't ever think that once you have your beads that you are done.

I've talked with people who say that they got as much from a week at National Camp School as they did at Wood Badge, some Sea Scouters will claim that Sea Badge beats the pants off Wood Badge.

Other will say that they learn as much from spending time with old time Scoutmasters.

I'm not going to say that they are wrong.

I do worry that at times we hold Wood Badge up as the be all and end all of all training's. This can be a mistake. It is just a course.

Eamonn.

Course Director

NE-IV-153

[Lisabob]

Thank you Eamonn for your common-sense approach to things.

 

And Kudu - it has been a while. Welcome back.

[emb021]

"I've talked with people who say that they got as much from a week at National Camp School as they did at Wood Badge, some Sea Scouters will claim that Sea Badge beats the pants off Wood Badge.

"Other will say that they learn as much from spending time with old time Scoutmasters.

"I'm not going to say that they are wrong.

"I do worry that at times we hold Wood Badge up as the be all and end all of all training's. This can be a mistake. It is just a course."

 

I agree. There are some out there that try to make WB to be that 'be all end all' course. And some get pissed because its not the advanced scoutcraft/leadership course they think it should be.

 

As you noted, there are other 'advanced' courses out there. They are excellent courses at what they do. They do not take away from WB, or 'compete' with WB, because their focus is different.

 

National Camping School is aimed at those provided program at our summer camps.

 

Sea Badge is the advanced course for Sea Scout leaders. Having been to it as well, I can say that it doesn't 'beat the pants' off WB in terms of leadership, but for providing advanced information on the Sea Scout program, nothing else comes close.

 

There is also Powder Horn, which is the High Adventure Resource course for Venturing AND Boy Scout leaders.

 

I wish there was an official 'advanced scoutcraft skills' course out there. But you know, there is NOTHING stopping some scouters to make it happen at the local level and having National adopt it. Stop whinning and complaining about WB not doing it, and come up with a new course.

 

 

[Kudu]

Barry writes:

 

As Kudu points out, doing patrol method at training doesnt mean you get it.

 

Yes, it does not guarantee that you "get it," but I do believe that it is more likely that you will understand the Patrol Method if you use it for a week at Wood Badge.

 

This is how William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course is structured: The Scoutmaster acts as Patrol Leader of the "Green Bar Patrol" with the SPL as his Assistant Patrol Leader. The Troop's Patrol Leaders are the Patrol members. The Patrol meets once a month (this could be on the same day as the PLC meeting) for six months for a "Patrol Meeting." The Patrol Meetings lead to a Saturday "Patrol Hike" and a later weekend "Patrol Campout." The idea is that the Scoutmaster models the behavior and activities that he expects from his Patrol Leaders. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

This was replaced in 1972 when "Leadership Development" became one of the "Seven Methods of Scouting" and practical Patrol Leader Training was replaced by the new abstract leadership skills taught at Wood Badge.

 

I do agree that Patrols are better off without an adult mixed in with the Scouts, and that teaching outdoor skills at Wood Badge was done more as an example of Uniformed Patrols working on Advancement in the great Outdoors than actual skills instruction.

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

A lot of countries have combined Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, which I believe B-P was against. Do you hold them in similar disdain for changing B-P's original program?

 

I am against any policy that interferes with a Patrol working and sleeping together with a minimum of adult interference. I don't see how mixed-gender Patrols could work in the United States.

 

The heads of both the conservative UK "Baden-Powell Scouts Association" and the conservative Christian "British Boy Scouts" told me that discrimination against homosexuals is now against the law in the UK, and I believe that this was a condition of joining the European Union. Perhaps mixed-gender Troops are a result of similar legislation?

 

Baden-Powell initially wrote in favor of the same Scouting program for both boys and girls, but Edwardian social condemnation over the "coarsening of young ladies" forced him to retreat on this issue and to invent a watered-down program called the Girl Guides.

 

Kudu - is it your suggestion that Wood Badge teach all of the above?

 

Yes, in Traditional Scouting movements (for instance the course being offered October 13th 16th at Caloosahatchee Park, Florida). All of the skills you list are still part of the core Tenderfoot - First Class program in such associations.

 

Kudu

[SR540Beaver]

"I wish there was an official 'advanced scoutcraft skills' course out there. But you know, there is NOTHING stopping some scouters to make it happen at the local level and having National adopt it. Stop whinning and complaining about WB not doing it, and come up with a new course."

 

As Barry mentioned above, our council does indeed have such a course. It is called Outdoor Skills Training and is referred to as OST. While IOLS teaches leaders the skills needed to facilitate a program from new scout thru 1st Class, this course is an advanced course that goes beyond the basic outdoor skills taught in IOLS. It is a two weekend program and is held each spring and fall. One of my fellow Woodbadge Troop Guides will be the SM on the fall course. He explained to me that the gentleman who developed the course years ago (and still oversees it) did shop it around to other councils and had no takers. It is however, a very popular course in our council.

 

The link for the course is http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/train/ost/outdoor-skills-training.htm. Basically it says:

 

Outdoor Skills Training is Last Frontier Council's locally developed and extremely popular two weekend advanced campcraft training program. Outdoor Skills Training is open to Leaders of all Scouts: Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers.

 

Outdoor Skills Training will be open to THE FIRST 36 registered adult leaders (18 or older) who are, or will be, involved in Troop Operations (Cub leaders included).

 

Learn to perform the outdoor skills of the Boy Scout Troop hiking and camping program. Skills include: Orienteering (map and compass), Pioneering, Woods Tools, Fire Building, Back Packing, Cooking with Dutch Ovens, and much more. As a bonus, participants will be certified in first aid and CPR.

 

Outdoor Skills Training is a two weekend training course which begins promptly at 8:00 a.m. on Saturday morning of each weekend and concludes about 5:30 p.m. on the first Sunday and about 7:30 p.m. on the second Sunday.

 

ATTENDANCE AT BOTH WEEKENDS OF OUTDOOR SKILLS TRAINING IS MANDATORY FOR COURSE PARTICIPANTS.

 

COURSE FEE: $ 55.00

 

The course is fast paced and every minute is scheduled. Please be prepared to hike at 8:00 am on the first Saturday. We camp out both Saturday nights.

 

Participants will provide food for three meals the second weekend.

 

Health History: All OST participants need to bring a BSA Class III medical form to the training. A physical exam is not required to participate in the training, but Sections I, II, III, IV, and VI of the Class III medical form need to be completed and the information needs to be current within the twelve months immediately prior to the course. Download a BSA Class III medical form (.PDF format) or pick up a form at either council service center.

[Kudu]

emb021 writes:

 

But SL and the OMM concept should not be confused.

 

I can't be the only one, because some Councils give out copies of his One Minute Manager at Wood Badge. The distinction may be moot because I have heard that the BSA is not going to renew its license with Blanchard.

 

At any rate, call me old-fashioned but my objection is to concentrating on abstract leadership skills rather than on the Theoretical and Practical aspects of Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting.

 

Kudu

 

 

[emb021]

""But SL and the OMM concept should not be confused.""

 

"I can't be the only one, because some Councils give out copies of his One Minute Manager at Wood Badge."

 

Since the books cost about $15-20, I find this strange. We staff had a couple to pass around and read. I already had my own set of the 2 need.

 

"The distinction may be moot because I have heard that the BSA is not going to renew its license with Blanchard. "

 

So? The BSA is still using the concepts of SL & TDM/TLM in the OA's National Leadership Seminar, National Youth Leader Training and Wood Badge. the concepts are not copyrighted. What is copyrighted are the TERMS used. By BSA coming up with their own terms (first rolled out in NYLT), they can stop with the licensing.

 

Same is true in my Fraternity. We use SL & TDM/TLM but without the Blanchard OR Hersey terms. We DO site our source for such information.