Fines for Untrained Leaders

[evmori]

Maybe the training is too specific? Maybe most of the training could be done in a weekend session with breakout sessions instead of all the position specific training. That might get more people to training!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Untrained leaders are a symptom of the problem and worse are Trained Leaders that simply ignore what they don't like. Fines and/or incentives for training would hide other problems found in poorly run units. A few years ago at a Philmont Training, we discussed what 10 items should determine a Quality Unit. We wound up with a long list with little agreement. If we discussed it here, I doubt we could achieve consensus on 10 the Top 10 of Quality Units, so let's give it a whirl...

FB

[gwd-scouter]

Some mandatory training is already required. If a Pack wants to go camping, it must have a BALOO trained leader. Taking the Scouts to the water? You MUST have safe swim/safety afloat, CPR. Rock climbing? Climb on Safely.

 

Our District holds an annual Youth Protection Training roundtable that is stated as being mandatory for every adult leader every year (many of us know that this is not the case, but we go anyway - can't get enough of the Carver Picnic).

 

Like everyone else it seems our District is plagued by untrained leaders and the topic is brought up at Roundtable and District Committee meetings. It seems to be worse among the Cubscout leader ranks. So far, however, no real solution to has been found.

 

I agree with other posters here that even trained leaders and/or those leaders who have been around a long time can ignore their training and go off on their own agenda - even as trainers spreading misinformation to new leaders. That was my case as a new SM. My trainer told me a lot of things I later found out were not exactly true (i.e., wearing the uniform while traveling for insurance reasons).

 

[CNYScouter]

So what does a council do to get Adults to training?

 

I think the talk about "required" training was done to try and improve attendance at training and when it didn't work the council is taking a drastic step by now requiring leaders to take training.

 

I think the council has tried every way to improve attendance at training.

 

About the only training that is full with a waiting list is SM Specific/Outdoor Skills.

It wasn't always though.

A few years ago Outdoors Skills was full and know one was taking SM Specific.

These courses are now combined and is the only training that hasn't been canceled in the last few years.

 

The Ship is the 8 or 9th new Venturing unit started in the district in the last 3 years, yet Venturing Specific has been canceled 3 years in a row due to no one signing up.

 

WLOT ran in April for the first time in 3 years, its been offered but one one signed up. Pretty much the same with TDC and BALOO.

 

Our council didn't run Wood Badge for over 10 years. 3 years ago it was offered and it was full, last year only 10 people signed up and it was canceled.

 

I was also told to expect that in the next couple of years the councils insurance carrier is going to require every unit to have at least 2 adults trained in outdoor skills to go camping (and be covered by insurance).

[Beavah]

So what does a council do to get Adults to training?

 

I'd start with listenin' to those adults, eh? Pushin' training is like pushing string. You need to be pulling people in, and to do that, you have to know what they're lookin' for and what they need (and when they need it).

 

From the little bit you mention, your leaders feel a need for outdoor skills training, but not for program/paperwork training. So offer more of the former, including "advanced" skills. Work some program refresher into that. Offer the other program stuff on-line, which is probably better than havin' some DE drone at 'em anyway.

 

Problem is this would take creativity and involvement and effort by the council, eh? Much easier to just require people to go to the canned product training in their mind.

 

I was also told to expect that in the next couple of years the councils insurance carrier is going to require every unit to have at least 2 adults trained in outdoor skills to go camping (and be covered by insurance).

 

Yah, dat's a good one. A new "insurance isn't going to cover" myth. Horse hockey. Someone is feedin' you a line, eh?

 

 

 

[MarkS]

The reason Cub Scouts has more (or a greater percentage) of untrained leaders is easier to identify than for Boy Scouts...

 

Many adults who volunteer to be adult leaders at the Cub Scout level are new to scouting, are only involved because their boy is involved, and have not vested into the program yet. They're waiting to see if Johnny really likes it before they decide to get trained--they don't want to take time for something they may not need. However, by not getting trained, the quality of their program suffers, and Johnny ends up not liking it. He drops out and they drop out. With this kind of attitude in many Cub Scout units, I think the more persistent leaders and their boys move on to Boy Scouts.

[CNYScouter]

On top of the BSA insurance our council has an extra $15 million primary liability policy (which we pay an extra fee when a unit recharters) .

 

New York State has much tougher liability laws than most states and in this day and age I dont see it so hard to believe that an insurance company might have come to the conclusion:

1) Were insuring an organization for liability that does outdoor activities.

2) The organization has outdoor training that if taken it might save us money by having to pay out less in claims.

3) It doesnt cost the insurance company anything to require this so well require the training for the organization to be covered.

 

This is not much of a jump as New York State already requires that anyone over 18 working (paid or volunteer) at a youth camp have a background check.

Any adult staying overnight with a Troop, even for one night at summer camp, was considered working and had to be a registered leader (thus had a background check).

 

Our Cub Scout Overnight camps only run 3 nights at the most.

Any longer and the laws here are much stricter (and it would cost a great deal more) to run our camps.

 

[SR540Beaver]

The problem with the adult mentoring is where are you going to get the adults to mentor other adults? We've already identified a problem area of adults having so much on their plate that they can't attend what is sometimes a one or two hour training. How are we going to find adultswho can take the time to travel from unit to unit and mentor adults who don't have time because they are working with the boys? One of the complaints you see here a lot is about the often non-existence of Unit Commissioners. My old district did a huge push a year or two ago to recruit and provide a UC for every unit. What ended up happening was UC's having 4 to 6 units to work with. Often these UC's were Cub leaders who had been in the cub program for a year or so that were serving as a troop UC. How the heck is someone new to cub scouts going to assist a troop? But.....every unit had a UC. Of course, these UC's all had unit, district or council postions to attend to as well and would end up burning out and quitting as a UC. I was asked to be a UC on a variety of occasions and my answer was a firm NO. I'm an ASM, that is what I do in scouting. That is the hat I wear. I'm not loading up on multiple jobs and doing each poorly. Obviously, mentoring is a fine thing......but it does not answer the question of where you are going to get mentors and how already pressed unit leaders will have the time to be mentored if they don't have the time to be trained. Mentoring will take longer.

[gwd-scouter]

Oops. Just reread my post and noticed I mentioned the Carver picnic when referring to Youth Protection. Apologies. I'm getting my trainings confused. Carver picnic is in Ages and Stages video for new leader training. I've done both so many times as a District Trainer that one sort of melts into the other.

 

 

[MarkS]

SR540Beaver... don't get me started on the non-value of the Unit Commissioner. My Pack's commissioner is an empty uniform that only signed off on rechartering paperwork and showed up for two B&G banquets my entire five year tenure in the unit. I fully expect it to fold before the year is out because of a lack of recruiting and leadership. If only UCs did their job and provided guidance and advice, including training recommendations, a lot of unit training issues could be resolved.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[campcrafter]

Here is one of the best ideas for Adult Boys Scout Leader training I have seen.

 

In 2 weeks our district and OA chapter are presenting and A.S.K. (arrowmen sharing knowledge)Camp. This camp is ONLY for scouts not yet first class. There will be many sessions offered to help those scouts fulfill needed requirement for T-2-and 1st class.

 

WHile that is going on the district is offering ADULT LEADER TRAINING!

 

What an excellent idea! Give the audlts something to do other than tag along with the boys and intimimdate the Arrowmen teaching. The adults will be there anyway - get them trained. May even work to offer this at Camporees or even Summer Camp

[SR540Beaver]

CC,

 

What a great idea for a district wide event. It however sounds like a mini summer camp to me since each summer camp I've been to does both types of program. Each I've been to has some sort of new scout program to teach skills up thru 1st class and the camp also offers adult training during the week. But I do like the idea of the OA doing this at the local level.

[campcrafter]

Beav

 

Yes our summer camp does Baden-Powell for first year boys. This weekend will help with some of the things our boys didn't complete there or for some like my son who did not atten summer camp this year.

 

I do not believe but do not know for sure, that our camp offered adult leader training this summer.

 

Also Beav I tried PMing you last week but don''t think the PM feature is working (someone I talked to on phone today said they try PMing throught the forum and haven't gotten it) if you would I have a few questions for you could you eamil me at campcrafter@yahoo.com

 

thanks

cc

[Nike]

Before a council gets really wrapped around the axle about fines for lack of training, they should re-examine the training calendars. Sure, lots of people just don't want to do it. And, lots of us have suffered through awful corporate trainings, and this doesn't look much different.

 

In my council, they offered the leader specific training for committee members one time (1, yes 1) for the entire year in the middle of summer. Secondly, the training isn't modular enough. I could go to New Leader Training and Youth protection, then leave before the break out for Cubs and Scouts, but I wouldn't get credit for it becuase I didn't go to the breakout and so had not "completed" the training.

 

I will bring up having the committee do it as a fun for all event just for us, but we're already a pretty busy bunch to get together more than once a month.

[eagle-pete]

My problem is I am not a good salesman.

 

Motivating leaders to go to training is all about the sales pitch and understanding how to sell a product. If you can get a leader to buy into the fact that they truly *need* training, you won't have any problems getting the leader trained.

 

Sure, I can talk all day here on the forum, or with my fellow Wood Badgers, about the value of training and how much better our units function with well-trained leaders. But we've already bought into the idea. Having this same conversation with a new, lukewarm leader who still isn't convinced that Scouting is the best organization in the world for our youth isn't so easy. Nor am I very good at it!

 

I think it takes a certain type of personality to pull it off and when you find that person, please let me know so I can bring them over to our Troop to be the Committee Member over training!

 

I don't need to punish my leaders, I need a good salesman.

 

Eagle Pete