Fines for Untrained Leaders

[scoutldr]

Have to disagree with ASM59. Too many SMs out there doing it wrong, then they train the new guys with their bad habits. Better to have standardized training from a common source. Unfortunately, that common source is inadequate and outdated. Especially on the blue side. In our neck of the woods, we do allow the SM Outdoor Leader Training to be done by a "mentor". It's essentially all the outdoor skills up through First Class, and if they can demonstrate the skill, they can be signed off without having to commit a weekend.

[drmicrowave72]

No trained leaders no recharter how will the councils make there numbers.

there some people will through the arms in the air OK I will not recharter. And in most cases these are small troops with only a few adults and lesss than ten or so scouts

 

 

[red feather]

Since training is getting such a high priority how about making some of it available online? Other high priority training is. I personally like the idea since the troop that I serve has active adults that would take the training if they could fit the training dates into their personal and professional lives.

 

yis

SM red feather

[MarkS]

Given that my council publishes training dates for all districts up to a year in advance and leaders have training opportunities on almost a monthly basis... there's no excuse in my council for not being able to fit it into their personal and business lives.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[eagle-pete]

Wow.. I don't know how I missed this topic. I wish I would have posted earlier.

 

MarkS - There's always excuses! I've heard all of them.

 

I've gotta side with Eamon on this one, "...if the Council were ever to send me anything that even looked suspiciously like a fine, I'd be inclined to tell them where they could stick it."

 

Let me reiterate something I have stated in other posts - Most of the leaders in the BSA are volunteers! I know of no organization that would have the gall to actually fine their volunteers for any reason. In fact, any organization which understands the value of their volunteers would thank them profusely for their time and service, rather than punish them for not living up to their expectations or qualifications.

 

Isn't it enough that we ask someone to voluntarily give up their time without pay, and many times without a great deal of gratitude? And then are we seriously going to make training standards mandatory to the point of penalizing those who don't comply? Are you kidding???

 

The value of a volunteer is that someone who willingly serves does it because they have a true desire to serve, and not because it is mandatory. It is, in fact, the guiding principle of Scouting Leadership. Once we lose sight of this, we will lose our volunteers.

 

It is disconcerting to hear that certain councils have started these programs of fining volunteers for not having been trained. In my opinion, it is a symptom that these councils have become desperate and are resorting to measures which ultimately will be harmful to their council. They really need to stop and think through the ramifications of this. It is my sincere hope that they will find other solutions to their training and financial needs.

 

Eagle Pete

[OldGreyEagle]

My eyes aren't what they once were, which post says that Councils HAVE started fining troops with untrained leaders?

[eagle-pete]

The original post only states that a unit leader made the suggestion.

 

I apologize for the oversite.

 

Eagle Pete

[CNYScouter]

Our council is not going to place fines on untrained leaders.

This was only a suggestion someone made to 1) get leaders to training and 2) help offset some of the financial issues our council is having and sell one of our camps.

 

I do like the idea of a higher registration fee with a discount for having training.

 

The rumor of our council going to required training has been around for a few years and has gone through a few changes.

 

I contacted my Council Commissioner and asked him what the policy on this was going to be.

Here is what is going to be put in place:

 

Effective September 1, 2006, all leaders new to their position, either new to scouting or by transferring, needs to be fully trained in their position.

To be fully trained:

Everyone must have Fast Start (for their specific program), NLE and YPT (taken every two years).

SM/ASMs must have SM Specific/Outdoor Skills.

All other Unit Leaders (Advisors/Skippers, CM, ACM, DLs) must have Leader Specific (for their specific position).

CC's and CMs must have Troop or Pack Committee training.

 

Those who refuse to get trained under the above conditions will have their own status put on hold. The individual will not be allowed to re-register until they are trained, but the unit can still recharter.

This only effects new leaders and has a grandfather clause and it will not require leaders that have registered before this date to comply

 

I like putting the responsibility of getting training on the individual instead of the unit.

 

It is felt that it will take 5 years before the council will have the majority of leaders who are untrained out of the program (left due to son(s) being out of Scouting, changed positions and so on.)

For those coming in to Scouting now it will be viewed as normal.

After 5 years or so, it will seem odd that anyone isn't trained.

 

The council knows that there will be units, especially Troops, that will have older leaders who are not trained, and that will exceed the 5 year timeframe.

The council feels that the newer, trained leaders will bring about conformance to the Scouting program.

 

The council is working on a test for older leaders that will allow them to not have to go through training again but can show they know the program. This part is not ready yet and they are still working on how to administer it

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkS]

eagle-pete makes an very important point. Most leaders are volunteers. We shouldn't be forcing them to do things they don't want. That's the solution for when you have too many volunteers. If we want volunteers to take training so they can learn to fulfill the role and responsibilities of their position well, we need to make them want to take the training.

 

This is why my earlier post said basic training should include lessons on how to motivate people. Getting volunteers to do things is all about motiviation. Mastery of this skill not only will help leaders build an effective leadership team, but will help them in working with the boys so the boys can have an enjoyable and satisfying program.

 

Basic training should also include opportunities to learn how to effectively recruit and build a team. These skills are too basic and fundamental to the success of units to wait until a Pow Wow or Wood Badge course to introduce them.

 

Almost all units have that one gung ho leader who wants to take basic training. What that leader needs is the skills to convince the other leaders to take the training too. If this skills are effective, we could see an exponential growth in trained leadership.

 

I think CNYScouter's council is doomed.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[OldGreyEagle]

I have always heard that the shortest job description for a scouter is to simply "deliver the promise"

 

I find it hard to deliver anything when you don't know what it is

[ASM59]

scoutldr,

 

Point well taken. It is important that there be "standardized training". Perhaps there could be a standard "indoor training" video and testing at a Council or District camporee for those who have acquired up to first class skills while participating in Troop activities.

 

This whole idea that there be mandatory training is scary.

 

You see, currently our Troop in a crisis. Trust me, we are currently utilizing every possible adult that we can. We have 4 committee members, a Scoutmaster, and 3 ASM's. Two of our leaders (SM & ASM) work every weekend. All four leaders (SM & ASM's) have work schedules that sometimes means that they cannot make our Monday night meetings. There have been several times recently that meetings were canceled due to no available adults. All committee members have small children at home and/or work schedules which would prohibit them from covering for the SM or ASM's.

 

We do not have one available person who can attend monthly roundtable for our District. We have monthly outings, but have a real hard time getting the leadership to handle transportation and supervision of the number of boys that go (average outing attendance is 18 boys). All of our leaders feel pushed to the extreme of what they can do for the Troop because of other obligations arising out of; single moms with young children, church obligations (a Scout is reverent), elderly parents, very young children, and large families. Forcing a training requirement on any one of the untrained volunteers at this point would mean pushing them out of their willingness to volunteer.

 

If our Council passed a rule that said we could not recharter without 100% training of the leadership, we would fold and 21 boys would be without a Troop.

 

There must be another approach that could be taken!

 

ASM59

[Beavah]

I think CNYScouter's council is doomed.

 

Yah, I agree. I know too many units like ASM59's. And as scoutldr suggests, even the men and women volunteers who do have the time will dig in their heels when it comes to BSA training because so much of it is so poorly done. At best, the net result will be the adult version of advancement mills and paper Eagles. Do whatever it takes to get "signed off" as cheaply and quickly as possible.

 

The funny thing is that we run arguably the best youth education program around, eh? Maybe we can learn from that. How do we do it? The kids learn through in-troop teaching and mentoring. If the council insisted that all boys had to come to "New Scout Essentials" followed by "Tenderfoot Training Day", we'd all (hopefully!) be arming the militia.

 

I wonder why we think that the great in-unit, self-paced mentoring techniques we use for kids won't work for adults? Instead we substitute in "worst practice" corporate training models. Not very mentally awake, are we?

 

Yah, CNY. Your council is doomed. If yeh want to move farther west, though, we'll take a limited number of refugees, eh?

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

On the other hand, I have four fingers and a thumb...

 

And come from a Council that requires training (not all leaders) and you can read about the training requirements in the Councils Newsletter at

http://www.minsitrails.com/Documents/Newsletter/May2006/final.pdf

 

We have had required training, but no fines, for 2 years and from what I understand are a growing Council

[ASM59]

OGE,

It states in your Council's training requirements, "Limited exceptions may be considered by the Council Training Chairman based on individual circumstances". Hopefully, they are taking into consideration situations like our Troop is in and making exceptions. It is great that they are experiencing growth. But could it be that we could experience even better growth by following a "mentoring" path like Beavah mentioned. I really think that Beavah is correct that a training requirement will, in many cases, produce "the adult version of advancement mills" with meaningless, yet time consuming, "training".

 

ASM59

[dan]

I think training should be mandatory, but I think these councils are doing it at the wrong level. I really think the training should be mandatory for the COR.

 

Making training mandatory for CM, SM, or ASM and not the COR is like training someone how to sew a suit, but not train anyone to purchase the material or thread to make the suit.