Too busy to take training

[bourne]

Beavah, as usual, is entirely correct. The issue with BSA training isn't the actual amount of time it takes. The problem is that a good bunch of folks, me included, just don't feel it's worth their time. Thus the "I'm to busy for training" bit is really just a polite way of saying "You know, I don't think this is worth my time."

 

Lots of other organizations have worthwhile training. In our unit, the same adults (and some scouts) that pay hundreds of dollars for a SOLO WFR class or EMT-B cert are the same ones that tell the story of "that awful BSA training" for years. It seems to me like BSA could almost do better outsourcing the training.

[SWScouter]

Bourne, no offense, but that's just a darn lousy attitude. Have those leaders who gripe about the training done anything about it? Most of the BSA training is designed fairly well. Look at the syllibi for the different courses. There are some things that can be improved but in general the courses are pretty good. The problem tends to lie with the people doing the training. They may not be prepared well enough to present the material and their presentation skills may not be up to snuff. They may not follow the syllabus like they should and they may ramble on about some things that seem silly. Who are those presenters? They're us. They are our fellow scouters in the district or council that are giving their time to help us. Yes, I've sat through a few training sessions that weren't the best, but I've also gone and read a lot of the different syllibi and I've even helped out the district training staff so others will have a better and more worthwhile experience. So to say the training sucks and not do anything about it really is a lazy, I don't give a crap attitude. I'm sorry, this isn't meant to be a rant, but it seems to me that the people that gripe and complain about the training without being concerned about if they've learned the material the training is for are just looking for an excuse for whatever an excuse is needed for.

[bourne]

Hi SWScouter! You wrote:

"...no offense, but that's just a darn lousy attitude. Have those leaders who gripe about the training done anything about it?

 

Well, yes, they go do training with outside agencies. We use the local ambulance services EMT class, the University's outdoor club's leadership and basic skills class, the local paddling clubs for water safety certifications, and so on.

 

The reason is there seems to be a greater value in receiving training for actual certifications by outside agencies.

 

Most of the BSA training is designed fairly well. Look at the syllibi for the different courses. There are some things that can be improved but in general the courses are pretty good.

 

Hmm... maybe in your council. My experience has been the opposite on both fronts. I've looked at the syllibi and I've been to several training events.

 

"The problem tends to lie with the people doing the training. ... They are our fellow scouters in the district or council that are giving their time to help us. ... So to say the training sucks and not do anything about it really is a lazy, I don't give a crap attitude."

 

Wow, it just seems like no thread around here is complete without some anger and blame to go around. Seriously though, it's this kind of institutional attitude of "blame the volunteers" that makes me want to leave scouting altogether. I've got better use for my volunteer time than to be yelled at.

 

Anyway, It's not that I don't care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't even bother posting here, right?

 

My purpose was to help answer the question of the original poster, with regards to "being too busy" from my perspective.

 

As to what to do about it, my answer would be simple: start by outsourcing training to real agencies with real experience and real certifications. That's the only way to build up any real experience. Complaining about lack of volunteers with experience won't help.

 

And of course, every unit has their own internal thresholds as to what training/experience they expect from their scouters. To be honest, my troop is probably higher than average. But if the real problem with training is just a lack of experience among instructors that's a pretty straightfoward problem to solve.

[CNYScouter]

borne-

 

The last time I checked the BSA did not have classes for EMT/CPR and such, so of course you are going to get better training in areas like these from the outside.

 

The problem with using outside agencies for training is often they are not familiar with the BSA's G2SS and their classes are often directed at adults and not for the ages we are dealing with.

 

It would take a great deal of effort to have an outside agency take over BSA training.

 

It would take years to get enough outside people familiar with the BSA program and policies to deliver quality training.

Until then you would just have inexperienced people reading out of a book

 

I have to say that both Wood Badge and Powder Horn training are some of the best training of its kind anywhere.

I have read the both British Petroleum and British Airways send their new Exec's to Wood Badge.

The BSA must be doing something right.

 

Are you willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to attend a BSA training session?

There are programs like Wood Badge available for businesses at outside agencies; they cost thousands of dollars to attend.

 

Almost all the BSA training deals with how to run and deliver the program.

As it has been said before. If you don't go to training to learn the program how can you deliver it?"

 

What a disservice is being done to the youth when adult leaders won't attend training.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Train and re-train constantly. That's a truism from Tom Peters.

 

I've got friends who are blue-collar, hands on folks. They are in the classroom a couple of weeks a year, rock bottom minimum. For them, it may be a new technique, governmental mandate, or a new material for use at the jobsite.

 

I've got friends who are white collar and spend their days looking at a PC. They are in the classroom a couple of weeks a year, rock bottom minimum too. For them, it's a new protocol for handling items, or a new form and calculations they have to program. In the case of a lady who leads a programmer team at H&R Block, she has to learn to the trainer level the changes in the tax code and the procedures and inter-relationships of forms in the 1040 package, so her team can build compliant software for us!

 

Point is this: People are used to quality training now. They expect skill development, they expect a fair amount of hands-on practice. They walk out when the instructor simply reads the material off the slides. They won't come back when they're given the 100,000 foot view and told "you're trained." THEY EXPECT ADDED VALUE FOR THE TIME INVESTED.

 

I've been to superb BSA sponsored training. The people were committed, it was obvious they knew the material, and it was obvious they were able to deliver the product and keep their audience awake and entertained.

 

I've been to horrible BSA sponsored training. Your mind tends to shut off when the instructor begins "I just got this package the night before, it's a new sylabbus from National, everything's changed, and it's a piece of garbage, so we're going to do the old program." Folks, that turns off novices.

 

New volunteers expect that the folks "wearing all those knots and their uniforms just so and setting an example" will present high quality training that matters. They may tolerate poor training a couple of times, but sooner or later, if they perceive the quality of training as poor, we've lost them, and they won't be back.

 

We can, and properly should, talk about the content of training here, and in staff development meetings. NEVER EVER SHOULD a man or woman leading training complain in front of the audience.

 

Anyone else want the soapbox?

[ScoutNut]

I'm sorry, but taking training at "outside agencies" not only does not qualify as being BSA trained, but does nothing to improve the quality of the BSA training you are complaining about.

 

 

"it's this kind of institutional attitude of "blame the volunteers" that makes me want to leave scouting altogether. I've got better use for my volunteer time than to be yelled at."

 

 

So do the volunteers that run the BSA training. Yet they put up with it from people who can't even be bothered to ATTEND the training, but still complain about it.

 

Every BSA training has a form for participant feedback at the end. After each training session, these comments & suggestions are ALL READ & DISCUSSED by the training team. Changes are implemented for the upcoming sessions based on this participant input. National also receives input on their trainings & uses that input to make changes. That is why they are always issuing new syllabi for their courses.

 

You complain that BSA training is not worth your time. Are the boys worth your time? Is the program worth your time? If you answer "yes" to the last 2 questions, then taking the BSA training so that you can offer your boys the best possible BSA program SHOULD also be worth your time.

 

BTW - if you would like to see your District's training improved, then you should volunteer to be a part of your council's training staff.

 

[vmpost]

BSAs current Wood Badge material was outsourced. The actual training is completed by local volunteers who have spent countless hours and driven countless miles for the previous 18 months working on putting together a program for us. They deserve more respect from us than this. Even though I personally didnt learn a ton from Wood Badge (I have been well-trained in management and teaching and routinely read all my manuals), there is virtually NO training that occurs in which NO learning occurs, unless we have the mindset from the beginning that the training has nothing to offer. I still learned a different approach, a different viewpoint, and built some great friendships. I still appreciate the staffs time & effort.

 

ScoutNut says, You complain that BSA training is not worth your time. Are the boys worth your time? Is the program worth your time? If you answer "yes" to the last 2 questions, then taking the BSA training so that you can offer your boys the best possible BSA program SHOULD also be worth your time. I agree completely. You need to attend to learn those BSA specific things that you cant learn through other resources.

 

He also says,if you would like to see your District's training improved, then you should volunteer to be a part of your council's training team. He is right on the money there. Be proactive rather than reactive. Help the training team get better at helping the trainees. Do what you can to help fix what you perceive to be wrong with training. While youre there, you might just learn respect for the volunteer training staff, respect for the challenges they face in finding excited, motivated, and skilled staff, and you might even learn a little more about the BSA program. (You knowsee one, do one, teach one.)

 

I agree with John-in-KC that we need quality training & trainers. Training teams strive for that. But sometimes it is very difficult to get volunteers to return to put-downs and disrespect. They dont have time to waste on ingrates. Especially for the awesome salary they are making.

 

I dislike it when the trainer reads the slides, or something similar. But there is still something to be learned, even if it is, Gosh, I think I could do this better. Ill just volunteer. Still, it is unfair to judge all trainings & trainers by one bad experience. (Too, due to outsourcing the material, to a certain extent, they are limited as to how much they can change the format.)

 

Yes, we can outsource all our training. But there goes the reasonable cost. What about the Leader Specific & Outdoor Trainings? Multiple training opportunities would become cost prohibitive.

 

Be appreciative of their efforts, look for the positive, build them up rather than tearing them down, and volunteer to help make training a more positive experience.

 

Next on the soapbox?

[Beavah]

Wow. Yeh ask for input, then you roast da poor fellow for givin' you input. Seems like some folks need some better trainin'.

 

Let's say I'm a unit scouter. My CO shows me the charter agreement that says "The Council agrees to provide year-round training, service, and program resources." When the council doesn't provide me with useful training, it somehow becomes my job to spend my volunteer time fixin' it, instead of spending that volunteer time with da kids in my CO's unit? Dat's some "trustworthy" charter agreement, there.

 

What a riot. Like telling the customer if he doesn't like the coffee, he needs to train the waiters. And folks wonder why people don't have time for training! As a district scouter, I know my job is to serve the units, not ask them to serve me. The units are where the kids are. They have enough to do.

 

I've never heard of a unit like Bourne's, and I wonder if he's exaggeratin' just a bit. Of course, most of us do outsource for a little bit of training like CPR or Leave No Trace. That recognizes that there are organizations out there that know a lot more about this stuff than the BSA, and they're worth learning from, spending time on, and paying for. If we're honest, we have to admit there are other professionals out there who do youth development, and outdoor leadership, and mentoring, and helping youth with disabilities or youth at risk, and fitness, and character development, and safety/risk management... a lot better than what's in da BSA program.

 

If we're honest with ourselves, we also recognize that too many of the BSA's folks are "one-weekend know-it-alls." That's partly from being so parochial - we see our (really minimal, cursory) training as the end-all. If Bourne's troop has people who are willing to seek out such real professional training so as to better serve their kids, the appropriate response isn't to villify them, it is to applaud them for their exceptional commitment.

 

And it certainly makes the point that people are willing to spend their time on quality.

[Oak Tree]

"Are the boys worth your time?" Yes

"Is the program worth your time?" Yes

"If you answer "yes" to the last 2 questions, then taking the BSA training so that you can offer your boys the best possible BSA program SHOULD also be worth your time." *** This does not logically follow. It presumes that training helps you offer the best program, and there are many cases where this is not evident. Most of my best leaders agree to go to training, but they'd be my best leaders whether or not they went to training. (Beavah's type 2 from the 'different' thread). It's true that people would want training if they saw a lot of value, or heard good word-of-mouth reports. Instead, mostly what we get is 'I got about 30 minutes of value from an 8-hour course'. And that's from the ones that good-naturedly go ahead and sign up for the next class anyway. I sat through a recent class that was truly terrible, where I got 0 minutes of value. Should I recommend this class to others?

 

Oak Tree

[Crew21_Adv]

I thought about replying to this post....

 

..... But I'm a little too busy right now.

 

 

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

[vmpost]

Oui! There are abominable training courses out there. For them, I am ashamed. Part of the problem is the training material, part of the problem is the trainers. It saddens me. It frustrates me. It angers me.

 

Are there any nearby councils/districts where the training courses are better? Go there. Do not "train" where you are getting no value. All you are training for is perserverance or a knot.

 

While I served as District Training Chair (Aha! Now you know why I was on the soapbox! ) I worked hard to get the BEST trainers. Yes, we offered what was in the BSA material as "required", but oft-times we spent a lot LESS time on those topics than scheduled and a lot MORE time on the skills that were requested or needed. I had to "fire" some volunteers, and that is always very difficult. Actually, I usually tried moving them into a more supportive role with less interaction or "teaching" time. We had good response from our district leaders, and our District had the highest percentage of trained leaders in our council, a level previously unreached by any other district in our council. We had leaders coming from other districts and other councils. I am tired. I turned it over to the next in line. I hope the quality continues. If it does not, the leaders in my own unit will go to another district or council.

 

Know how I got "hired" for the job? While shopping in our Scout Shop, I rather foolishly mentioned to our DE that we needed to get a Dist Training Chair who would actually schedule trainings, follow-up on it, and provide quality trainers. Without missing a beat, he said, "Okay. When do you want to start?" Unfortunately, that's how MOST districts get their training people.

 

It is my wish that people who are good with a skill & good at sharing that skill would volunteer for their own District Training Staff. Wow! Wouldn't we have some awesome training then!?! If some of those people who have tons of training outside BSA would/could volunteer to help those within their district, WOW! Wouldn't that be some dynamic training? They do not.

 

No, you should not attend poor training.

No, you should not send your leaders to poor training.

Yes, you should go to training.

Yes, you should seek quality training.

Ideally, YES, your council/district would provide it locally.

Realistically, they gotta' go with what they can get.

 

Oui. I am ashamed.

[vmpost]

Crew21 -- I loved your response!

[evmori]

To those who state the training in their area is poor..........

 

What is poor about it?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

Steelers Super Bowl Champions!

[John-in-KC]

From a Commissioner's College I attended:

 

"I just got this syllabus from National for teaching you "Fundamentals of the Guide to Safe Scouting" last night. It's a bunch of garbage, it changes things from the way we've always done them. So, I'm going to teach you the Guide as I know it and as we've always done it."

 

Sometimes the offense is so egregious you remember it word for word. Not only did I write up the instructor, I went and grabbed one of the assistant deans of the college and pitched a huge fit at him.

 

 

[vmpost]

Flip side (maybe I'm under the soapbox instead of on it?):

 

I have been to trainings where incorrect information was stated as fact. When I questioned the instructor about it, I was told I was mistaken. When I showed them in the manual where it said it, they were astounded and thought it must be an outdated manual. (It wasn't.)

 

I have also been to trainings where the trainer sat in a chair and read the syllabus verbatim. Never changed tone, never looked up. For pity's sake! Those people can read too!

 

The first incident led me to get involved in training. The second happened when I was District Training Chair, and it was one of my instructors. I was appalled. I stepped in and did one of those "tree check" kind of things...got that instructor re-directed and filled in the rest of that session myself.