Knot tying and leadership---thoughts???

[MollieDuke]

This is spun from another thread because it is a situation that we're struggling with in our troop. Our boys have neither leadership nor knot/lashing skills. Long story! Anyhow....we've about decided to get the basics first and intense leadership second. Reasoning being the following: if a boy falls and needs a lashed travois, can they make one? if a child needed to make a shelter for some reason when he's out on grandpa's hill and sees it's getting ready to rain can he make one? can he signal in absense of his cell phone battery? I know these are just "what if" examples, but we're supposed to make these boys self reliant and although I realize leadership is important and I'm all for it, well....shouldn't they get these basics down so they can survive and then lead others to do the same? When you're starting from nothing which do you choose? I think of the youngsters in our group that are being led into the "wilderness" by the older boys and the older boys couldn't even make a shelter if they had to (well a couple of them might), but by heaven, they may be a good leader at a meeting. To me, I guess it's troop by troop seeing which you do most, but since Scouting is supposed to be outing, then I think maybe the basics should come first.....at least till they're mastered........then move to leadership.....

 

IMHO,

MollieD

[frank10]

Which is more important, your left shoe or your right shoe?

[CNYScouter]

I dont see why it has to be one or the other when you can incorporate both of these.

 

The older, higher ranking scouts had to learn the basic scout skills at some time and you should be able to refresh these skills quickly with them.

 

The older scouts can than teach this skill to the younger scouts.

 

This can then be done with lashing and any other basic skills that need to be worked on.

 

Yes, this is not the fastest way to teach scout skills but we are not always looking for the fastest way to do things but ways to use the methods to achieve the aims.

 

[Its Me]

MollieDuke wrote:

"Shouldn't they get these basics down so they can survive and then lead others to do the same? When you're starting from nothing which do you choose?"

 

 

No you are wrong, you should teach them Power Point and how to type a meeting agenda first. Then assign them cool research projects like how steelwool was invented and have them present this material at a meeting with their newly learned power point skills. Do this with the lights low of course. Also teach them to sweep the audience with their eyes while talking. To tie this in with the outdoors get some of those cool inspirational posters that show people rowing together with the word "TEAMWORK" above it or my favorite a guy climbing a mountain with the word "ACHIEVE" above it.

 

These boys could be spending the rest of their lives at a desk doing reports and sitting in meetings, at 13 & 14 they need to acquire these meeting survival skills as soon as they can. They can go to the outdoors some other time when they have more free time.

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[dan]

IMHO the Scouting experience allows the scouts to learn scout skills and leadership at the same time, if the adults allow it to happen.

 

I do take exception to having an older scout teach skills to the younger scouts. I see troop say let the older scouts do it, WHY? It is not their job, if they want the job have them ask for the troop instructor jobs, and if the SPL thinks he would be the right person, he should be awarded the job. The troop instructor should be assigned a skill to be taught at meetings and outings, this should be hands on training not a scout standing in front of the group lecturing. The instructor is going to need a lot of coaching to do a good job, but is that not part of leadership? The ASPL should be coaching the instructor!

I believe the the trainer learns more about the subject than the trainers but that is part of the leadership skills being learned!

[Eamonn]

Thinking back to when I was a young Lad...

I joined to have fun, I enjoyed the challenge and the adventure.

The skills were the tools that we needed for the adventure.

Of course as a kid I felt short changed that I never got to dash in and save anyone from a smoke filled room. I walked home from Troop meetings for about a month sniffing each and every house just praying one would be kind enough to be full of gas.

I used to get a little peeved that I had to stop building the pioneering tower so that I could show whats-his-name how to tie a clove-hitch, all because he had missed the Troop meeting.

In order to earn the Chief Scout's Award I had to earn an Instructor Badge, I took the Swimmer Instructor Badge, not because I really wanted to teach kids how to swim, but because I wanted the badge. It was only after doing it that I found teaching kids how to swim was fun and yes I basked in their hero worship.

Now that I'm old and grumpy I still think that if we just follow the program focus on the fun and adventure, give the kids the challenges they need things have a strange way of falling into place.

It ain't rocket science!!

Eamonn.

[AvidSM]

MollieDuke - you say that your boys don't have any leadership skills. How do you know this??? I can't believe there isn't a single boy in your unit that doesn't have any natural leadership talent.

 

It's easy to tell if boy has no knot or lashing skills - you ask him to tie a certain knot and he can't.

 

But, how do you know your boys have no leadership skills? Have you ever asked them to lead? And, if so, what did you do when they failed? Did you give them advice and council or did you take over for them then and there? What can they learn by this?

 

And, why is it YOU who decides what the boys work on first? Are you so afraid of letting the boys decide what they want to do?

 

Given good advice and the framework of the scout oath and law, I find the boys will make the right decisions regarding troop activities. Even though some of these skills are not their favorite things to do, they know they have to learn them to advance. They know what's cool and what's not - more so than an adult.

 

Let them decide on what, when and where. That's not putting leadership first -- it's putting THEM first.

 

 

 

[red feather]

rambling thoughts....

 

Can't remember the last (or first) time a new scout indicated that the reason that he joined scouting was to learn leadership skills. Sorry, IM but not one potential new scout or parent asked if we taught computer and meeting skills in the last 10+ years that I have been active with the troop.

 

If memory serves right they wanted to learn something outside of what they learn in school or at home. You know the "exciting" stuff.. camping, cooking, first aid, all that kind of stuff. (Do I dare include knots? )

 

The two things: scouting skills and leadership go hand in hand with each other. Without one you really cannot do the other in the Scouting arena.

Which one is more important is really moot. They DO go together. As the scout and scouter become more proficient in one they also will get more proficient in the other when the program works.

 

Just rambling, maybe more later

 

yis

[SeattlePioneer]

As I understand it, Scouting usually works because it is a group of boys and adults who like to go hiking and camping. The natural consequences of that common motivation is that a wide variety of skills need to be acquired if boys are to be able to take THEMSELVES camping, along with adults to make sure things are safe.

 

This past month, we had skills training in the Tenderfoot knots ---two half hitches and a taught line hitch. I found that many of the older Scouts had forgotten these knots and were embarrassed to admit it and didn't want/weren't able to teach the younger Scouts.

 

Last Saturday, we had a day hike. It was a winter hike involving 4 wheeling three miles or so up a Forest Service road with 4-6" of new snow, and fairly heavy snow throughout the trip.

 

Our first activity on the hike was to construct a tarp shelter using ---the taught line hitch and two half hitches. The new and old Scouts got a chance to practice those skills, and the older Scouts learned that such skills are important for more reasons than getting a rank requirement signed off. As an added bonus, the ground was frozen which made getting stakes in the ground a challenge. Despite that, we had a measure of protection against wind driven snow and 20 degree temperatures, something the Scouts found useful and valuable.

 

After constructing the shelter, we had a nice hike up what had once been the main line of the Great Northern Railway through the Cascade Mountains (Google "Iron Goat Trail", if interested), and we got to the mouth of a long tunnel that had helped the trains get through the mountains. You could imagine the trains coming out of the tunnel and running you flat! Pretty impressive in the winter conditions. Scouts had an opportunity to get wet, freeze their hands and bodies, or they could learn to keep a stocking cap on, their hoods up and stay dry and warm ---take your pick.

 

 

 

Once we got back to the shelter, the new Scouts were invited to build a fire using the wood and paper in a cut down metal barrel. Shucks --- they didn't have the skills to do that! The older Scouts did, and taught the new boys how to cut kindling and build a fire in difficult environment.

 

The adults had brought along some soup and hot chocolate to heat up and hot dogs to roast, and the Scouts thought it was worthwhile to have some hot food rather than just the sack lunches they had brought.

 

After the meal was over, it turned out that a young child had been lost in the wilderness and the Scouts were asked to help find him before he froze. The lost child was wearing red, with "Lays Potato Chips" on the front of his blouse. The Scouts searched up the road indicated, and located the lost child tied to a tree, learning that they hadn't organized their search as well as they might have. The chips were enjoyed by all.

 

 

To me, Scouting skills are not primarily something to get checked off to meet advancement requirements. They are useful skills that give people the freedom of the hills to hike and climb in the backcountry.

 

When I organize a hike, it's not just a walk in the park. The aim is to make it an adventure which is going to require the use of Scouting skills to solve the problems that the Scouts will encounter during the course of the trip.

 

Next month we are planning a snowshoe hike. At our next troop meeting, we will probably have a discussion on how to build igloos or snow caves if the PLC wants to schedule that instruction. On that hike, the Scouts will be expected to travel to a location specified on a topographic map, use their Klondike Derby sled to carry firewood, tarps and such, and figure out how to set up a tarp using deadmen anchors in the snow rather than tent pegs, among other things. If they don't pay attention to the igloo building instruction, that may be a fristrating experience, and if they can't use their map and compass skills, they may have a hard time too.

 

In my view, the beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequences.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[dan]

 

In my view, the beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequences.

And these actions taught the troop instructors, what?

[ljnrsu]

Seattle great post. Since 75% of scouting is outing skills play an important role. Skills are a means to make outings enjoyable.

Maybe it has to with the fact that as a scout in the mid-late 60's skills were necessary. Did not have stoves to cook on or pop up gazebos for shade/rain protection. Had to learn and use your skills to make outings fun and enjoyable not just survivable. Wanted hot food needed to know how to make a fire in any type of weather.

Every boy can learn and remember scout skills all it takes is practice using them on outings. Kinda hard to have a successful camping trip if the boys do not know how to set up camp,cook,clean.

Not every boy can be a "leader". For some it comes naturally,others can learn but unfortunately there are a few that no matter what anyone does just can't do it.

Do we give up on the ones who can't of course not. Everyone has their own niche in life. Leadership comes in many forms. It can come from teaching skills to other scouts. The old saying of leading by doing comes to mind. Sometimes it comes by following others,difficult to be a leader without followers. The POR's recognize the different traits of leadership. Leading others (PL/SPL),teaching (Instructor/TG) and doing(QM/Scribe).

Skills vs leadership which comes first interesting question. To me it comes down to what is wanted by the unit. If unit does car camping then skills may not be that important. For a unit that does long term canoe/backpacking trips then skills may be important.

 

(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

[Lisabob]

Wow Seattle, sounds like a great weekend. How'd you like to be a visiting member of my son's troop for a while? These are exactly the kinds of skill and skill-training that I'd love to see him have a chance to learn. In another thread a while ago we had a conversation about structuring opportunities for boys to learn and demonstrate skills and the difference between "structured opportunities" and "spoon feeding" - this is exactly what I was talking about there, you just said it much better than I did!

 

And it sounds like you/your troop have found a good balance between leadership and skill training.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[SeattlePioneer]

Sorry, Dan --- I don't understand your remark.

 

My aphorism that "The beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequnces" has a lot of applications, in my experience.

 

Getting signed off on a skill doesn't mean much if your can't use it when you really need it, for example.

 

Taking people into the backcountry depends upon people being trustworthy to me. I've taken a group of adult cross country skiers back to the cars and gone home when people proved they couldn't stay together.

 

To me, Scouting values have little to do with being good, for goodness sake. There are very practical reasons why following those values makes hard common sense.

 

While being "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind" seem like they may be rather namby pamby values in a tough, bottom line world, they are often reliable ways to protect yourself from harm in a cruel world, in my experience. A person who is being helpful, friendly, courteous and kind," is a fairly tough person to pick a fight with, for example.

 

Seattle Pioneer

[MollieDuke]

Two SM's ago, our group had skills and boy led troop. Then.....Next SM came in and in our group the leadership amounted to an adult telling each kid exactly what to do (more like Cubs). The adults planned each and every thing they did which basically amounted to basketball/football and very few scout skills. It's a very, very long story that goes over nearly 6 years, so I won't try to detail it, but suffice it to say that the boys weren't satisfied and that now they seem to be very excited over the changes. These kids haven't attended camp, advanced a rank, or earned a MB in over a year. Sad. The new SM is an old scouter who seems OK. My son likes him and the boys seem to as well. He's recently recruited a new ASM and as a pair they seem great. I had a talk with the new SM last week and he said that the boys with the most natural leadership skills seem to be those the former SM said didn't have a leadership bone in their bodies. HMMMMM......Anyhow, the winds of change seem to be going well, at least with the boys.

 

I like what Seattle said about the boys seeing how these skills can help them by doing it. I think they'd remember it longer that way. I do, however, think that we shouldn't negate the "presentation" message of IM, although I thought it was a "joke" when I read it...(guess I was wrong???). Anyhow, I do feel that kids will have to get up in front of groups and speak, or write appropriately, or whatever and if it weren't important, there wouldn't be MBs of Communication, Computers, and Public Speaking as choices. I just don't think it is the main objective of Scouting.

 

I think these kids will finally be able to do more this year than in the past. I just hope that my younger son will reap the benefits of the new SM.

Mollie

[Its Me]

 

Funny, I thouht I wrote my "steelwool presenation" as a joke too. I thought is was so obvious that I didn't even need a .

 

I too think that Seattle Pioneer is right on target for what a quality program should look like. Where good outdoor skills developes good character and sound leadership.

 

Most schools can delivery the public speaking and leadership development through debate, drama yearbook, student council, sports and various other elements. I know back in the 80's when I was in high school we all had to take speech, work in groups and write reports. But it was done in a classroom not the outdoors and I really don't recall a class where I had to teach students two years my junior a skill.

 

Leadership is import but to think that the youth will only be exposed to leadership skills through scouting is a mistake. However, scouting very well could be the only place where the youth is taught outdoor skills.