Are we spending too much time on leadership?

[Its Me]

 

I will say yes, the program seems overly focused on leadership and less on skills.

 

At the turn of the century society needed fit, trainable and rugged boys who could be easily converted into soldiers for expanding empires. Hikes, minimalist backwoods cooking and patrols simulated an army on the move. The 1909-1940s societies of Britain, Germany and the US all had youth movements and wanted its boys/men to be prepared for protecting each countrys way of life and social economic structure. War loomed during the founding days of the scouting movement.

 

Now our societies ask for boys/men to be soldier of economic war. They must have the skills and drive to build corporate empires and to survive and function within. The BSA delivers what society wants. Society wants leaders. Leadership is presumed to equal financial success both for the individual and for his nation. The skills of public speaking, the skills detailed study and research are valued over pure outdoor skills such as knot tying, knife sharpening and animal tracking.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I've been contemplating the balance of leadership and outdoors training in the Scouting program for some time now.

 

We need to look at American society these days: Largely urban, outdoor skills are no longer part of the "due course" training a child receives growing up.

 

Look back to the Depression generation: It was truly the last generation where outdoor experience was inherent to the upbringing.

 

Look at (for some of us) our own Boomer generation: Dad had been in WWII or Korea, and helped teach us our skills. We also had nuclear families far longer in our youth.

 

Now, look at todays generation, both youth and adult: We live in cities, we have to MAKE the opportunity to get out to the woodline. We have highspeed/lowdrag gizmos that supplant the basic needs for lashing, unless we force youth to leave the gizmos behind. I have even heard a "leave no trace" trainer of trainers submit to his class that pioneering may well be outside the boundaries of the LNT ethic!

 

Even so, in the nautical community, Eamonn needs ropework as part of the most basic skills training, and he is (rightly so) asking to Scout troop to supply when a boy moves up in program. Further, there are other skills boys need in life to be ready for manhood. National long ago took cooking out of the Eagle mix. We stop teaching it at first class. I submit, as a divorce`, that cooking properly and well is a basic and essential skill of manhood!

 

So, all the way around the cape, we need the leadership in both youth and adult training, we need the skills in both youth and adult training, AND...

 

because colleges, universities, the Armed Forces, and even vo-tech schools are looking for it from youth...

 

We need the emphasis on advancement which some say is overdone. Sad, but from my observation, true.

[scoutingagain]

Just some thoughts on skills vrs leadership training.

 

With today's technologies, why do so many organizations incorporate tall ship sailing in their training programs?

 

Is the main point of learning to tie knots to join two pieces of rope together?

 

Why do we learn to build fires with natural materials when I can go to Home Depot and buy an instant light propane campfire?

 

Why do we learn to cook when we can easily order MREs online?

 

Why do we have an outdoor program when the boys have just as much fun sitting inside playing video games?

 

Why do we hike when we can ride?

 

Why do we spend so much time in the outdoors when it's so much more comfortable inside?

 

The point of the outdoor skills training, teaching and mastering is to learn and instill confidence, responsiblity, teamwork and leadership. They should not be viewed as a means to an end themselves. The activities are there to allow scouts to practice both the actual skills when applicable, but more importantly to practice leadership skills. Organizing a group of boys to accomplish a task, whether it's to hike from point A to B, cook a meal, gather firewood, put up a tent.

 

SA

[Eagle74]

Phooey! I just typed a continuation of my earlier post and it disappeared before going through. It's getting late and I'll try again tomorrow.

[FScouter]

Reading these posts, an outsider might think that Scouting is all about Scoutcraft skills and leadership! Building leaders is not the goal of Scouting. Neither is building boys that are knot wizards. Does anybody know why leadership development is a part of Scouting, and how big a part it should play??

 

Scoutingagain has the right idea, but he didn't finish the post. Scout skills is not an end in itself, and neither is leadership. What is the "end" we are really aiming for?

[OldGreyEagle]

To teach young people to make ethical choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the scout oath and law?

 

Scouting uses the outdoor method as a framework for its program. Knute Rockne used and JoePa (Joe Paterno for you non-Pa's) uses football as their framework to acheive virtually the same end.

 

Bobby Knight uses basketball, John Wooden used basketball to teach life skills to atheletes.

 

They all talk about teaching values, lessons and confidence. In the end, the result is supposed to be the same, mature adults who have values and skills to apply in modern life.

 

Why do schools teach latin, its tough to hold a conversation in it. Why earn a liberal arts degree in an increasing technical society, is it the knowledge that is the key or the skills aquired to handle the information that is the benefit?

[scoutingagain]

Fscouter,

 

You are right. I didn't finish the post. I was hoping someone with more eloquence than I would pick up the thread. I mentioned leadership only because that was in the title of the thread. You are correct though. The main point I was trying to make after reading some of the previous posts on skills was that if folks think we teach knots, map & compass, camping, hiking, lashings etc. so scouts can survive in the wilderness they're missing a significant point of the outdoor program. I think I understand it, having been through a strong outdoor program as a youth, and now understand how that has helped me as an adult, but frankly would have a tough time putting it into written words.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SA

[Its Me]

 

The relevance of learning outdoors skills is on par with learning Latin? Jeesh!

 

First I agree that at times especially in the Webelos program the material looks like academic course work such as Latin. But we all know Latin can be FUN. Right! Its all in how you present it.

 

Second I think there is an old guard mind set that elevates the importance of any youth program such as scouting, or sports, or youth ministries in the child's development. Its just a component in the child's life. The mere fact the youth is involved in program is 80% of the battle. Get him out there doing tactile things, with like minded buddies and like a seed sprinkled with water he will grow.

 

Leadership, and the command and control structure should be secondary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

"Bobby Knight uses basketball."

 

I thought he used fear and intimidation to obtain winnig scores.

[AvidSM]

You can never spend too much time on leadership. Especially those units that have no patrols, who's adults have taken over the cooking and bark out orders to their scouts. I see them at camporees with their large carports full of troop cooking gear. I hear them at summer camp, constantly telling their boys what to do. These adults have given up on letting their boys lead: it's too hard; the food stinks; things don't go as smoothly.

 

These leaders have taken the easy way. And the first step down this easy path is saying to yourself, "this leadership thing is not as important as these other things". They may justify their actions by saying that the troop runs smoother, is more efficient, or has a better program without youth leaders. But, the truth is, they have turned their troop into a youth camping group that loosly follows BSA policy as they see fit.

 

Teaching the boys all the skills they need to be a good scout is important. But you can do this AND teach leadership at the same time. It's more work. It requires more training for both you and the boys. And, you have to be patient and swallow your ego. But, if you do it, it can be very rewarding and the boys learn their skill better from each other than just the adults.

 

There are way too many troops out there that do not let their boys lead - even with the BSA's emphasis on leadership. That is why I say you can't stress it enough.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle74]

Look at it as a total package. The methods include leadership development, outdoor programs and advancement (skills). The explanatory material after each method paints a pretty good picture. In the total package perspective, (scouting) skills are an adjunct to character and leadership development.

 

First, the lad develops a skill set and one that has transferable applications (part of the later situational leadership game). The lad learns, conceptualizes, and successfully completes a set of basic skills. Many of these basic skills progress in difficulty - knots start with a basic square knot and progress through more difficult knots; cooking starts with assisting and progress through cooking for the patrol for an entire meal set. The scout learns to work the process (skill) through to successful completion. The skill set provides the foundational basis for later leadership. Good leaders have a thorough understanding of the foundation that holds up the organization, team, etc. - might not be a master of all skills, but have a very thorough understanding.

 

Second, some of these sometimes labeled "irrelevant" skills are at times more relevant than one imagines. With emergency services involvement I regularly see, hear, and experience the helplessness of a significant part of the public when the poop hits the ocscilating blades. During a severe storm for instance, many are without a clue as to how to continue with basic living. Those knots can come in handy when a tarp needs to be placed across the damaged house. That first aid is always a handy skill. That axemanship and firebuilding can come in handy when the power is out for days. Map and compass skill has kept many an adventurer from meeting a disasterous end; and how does the fire department find you when the street signs are gone and half the roads are blocked? By map and compass, if you know how to use them. GPS/GIS - "A map with a bullet hole in it is still a map. A laptop GIS (computer) with a bullet hole in it is an expensive paperweight" (paraphrased). Leaders live by "Be Prepared." Study of management/leadership literature from the East emphasizes mastery of basic skill sets and basic concepts. (Book of Five Rings, Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun, and so on)

 

Third, the skill process begins the leadership process. The lad learns, teaches, and leads. The skill is learned. In turn the lad teaches others (development of communications skills needed for effective leadership). The teaching (mentoring) lad begins to develop group dynamics and leadership. Successfully teaching others involves many of the of the things needed for leadership development - verbal communication, non-verbal communication, demonstrative communication. In teaching others the lad starts the leadership trail. Most often the lad with skill mastery and teaching (communications) ability morphs into one of the troop's leaders by default.

 

Fourth, take the lad that now has the skill set and foundational knowledge/concepts, sprinkle in leadership skills and we are reaching the aims. The little ditty I posted earlier comes into play here. Good leaders understand followership (is that a word?). Watch a "leaderless group" assessment center exercise sometime. A group of all leaders each trying to be the leader. The leader that understands following (and contributing) often ends up with the consensus (leads) much to the chagrin of "dominant leader."

 

Scouting should not be an all-skills or all-leadership development program - both are important in their own ways and compliment each other.

 

It's not about square knots, it's not about axe skills, it's not about developing every lad into an outstanding leader - it's about the total program and total package. It's about the Aims and Methods - all of them.

[OldGreyEagle]

"The relevance of learning outdoors skills is on par with learning Latin? Jeesh!"

 

Maybe you are funnin' me, I don't know but I will try again.

 

The outdoor method is the framework in which the program takes place. Its not necessarily the skills that are taught, but the goals that are acoomplished that builds the skills needed for adult life. For example, in the Council I serve there is a model rail road Venturing Crew. They use the model rail road framework to deliver their program The advisor was telling me about the satisfaction he gets in seeing a new member who is scared to turn the setuo on grow in confidence as he helps assemble a display, learns how to wire, program, build, plan and design a new set up. Kids who couldnt barely plug into a 120 outlet learn to do "magical" things. Are these life skills? Maybe not, but they are sucessful experiences that build a foundation for confidence in later years.

 

"Bobby Knight uses basketball."

 

I thought he used fear and intimidation to obtain winnig scores

 

Well, first of all I didnt say, nor did I imply Bobby Knight used the same methods or I agreed with them .

 

 

[Eamonn]

I'm not all together sold on the idea that Scouting skills are no longer important.

Maybe I'm a little hung up on:

Homines, dum docent, discunt.

I'm all for the "Total Package" Sign me up for all the methods, I like to think that I'm doing my bit to bring our vision and mission statements to life.

I do think that Joe-Pa (Guest speaker at last years dinner) needs to know something about the game, before he can start coaching it.

We seem happy to bring a group of new leaders away for a weekend and cover the Outdoor Skills, but spend six days on Leadership??

Lads don't join Scouts to learn how to be leaders, they join to go camping, hiking and do the outdoor stuff. If they want to learn Latin they join the Latin Club.

I'm 100% for leadership, but just feel that we are over doing it a bit.

Eamonn.

[scoutingagain]

I agree with the "Total Package" idea as well.

 

If the Total Package is applied effectively, the lads will learn to tie knots, hike, camp, navigate etc., but somewhere along the way they will also develop confidence, character, leadership, learn to make ethical choices and they won't have necessarily had a single class in character development, leadership, or ethics. Hopefully they will have had fun and most will not realize what happened to them until after the fact. Ask your average 15 year old what they got out of their Philmont trek, and I doubt you'll hear much about ethics, character or leadership ... but it was all there.

 

SA

 

 

[Eagle74]

Back to a possible overemphasis on leadership. I tend to agree, but maybe it's a function of the times - the tendency to jump straight to the top, never building or touching anything below. The problem is you might be able to build the house without a foundation, but the foundation will always be missing; and sooner or later it won't be a pretty picture.

 

Becoming an Eagle Scout (scouting's ultimate badge of leadership) - isn't that what it's all about? How fast can I get there and with the least amount of output. Woodbadge - who needs any of that other stuff like Essentials, Outdoor Leader Training, etc anyway? I want to be a top-tier leader. (Please don't manipulate the thought . . . I didn't say Woodbadge is bad).

 

And lest we focus too much on the Scouting program, this happens not just in Scouts (and Scouter) programs, but in other walks of life as well. I see it every day at work - I want to be a Chief and Chiefs don't need to use tools or pull hose or rappel from buildings or shore a trench. Too many Chiefs; not enough Indians.

 

I may be on the wrong track, but my goal is to develop - or rather do my part to help develop - a young man with a firm footing, solid character, and leadership ability (not a finished leader) by the time he leaves the Scouting program. At whatever rank.