Is Training Indepth enough?

[resqman]

This past weekend I attend Webelos Outdoor Leader Training. The instructors were very knowledgeable, the facilities clean and adequate size for the group, the schedule was well posted and kept to religiously. Those who organized the training and conducted the training were wonderful. The only problem I had was it seemed to treat all topics very superfically.

 

I attended some other training roughly 6 months ago. Safe Swim defense, Climb on Safely and several others. 5 classes in a single Saturday.

 

In all cases the instructors were knowledgeable and well prepared. It was obvious they had been there and done it. They had the equipment, location, and students. What they did not seem to have was time.

 

In all cases the instructors were only allowed at most an hour to present a topic. In that time, they could only begin to introduce the highlights, cover the mandatory BSA rules and offer a tip or two. I could only feel that if you were not familiar with the topic, you would be left with a feeling of incomplete knowledge. If you knew the topic, it was a quick review to get your card punched until it had to be taken again in a year or two.

 

On the ride home from this weekend's training, we were all glad we had taken the training and got a few small tidbits to take away. We commented that we wanted more. More information and more depth to each topic.

 

All of us had been Cub Leaders for at least 3 years but two had significantly more years. We all agreed we wanted training where we could dive into more depth into a topic. Not just 45 minutes of scape the area clean around the fire ring, collect more wood than you think you will need, have water buckets, and preparation is the key to good firemaking.

 

We wanted real tips and tricks to building a fire. We wanted to actually build a fire, to try using different matchless techiques, compare a teepee vs. an A frame, learn by doing.

 

I can understand that with everyone having busy lifes that there may be a problem getting a enough adults to give up half a day just on firebuilding or some other topic. But on the other hand, I am coming away from training with the feeling that we are only scratching the surface.

 

Are others having similar experiences?

[orennoah]

Your concerns are valid. However, you have to realize what a chore it is to get many (if not most) Scouters to attend training sessions. The time commitment, away from family, is a burden. Consequently, the training does not go into great depth. Instead, most training is designed to "point the way" to self-exploration of the topics.

 

As for a more hands-on outdoor skills class, I strongly suggest that you and your fellow leaders take the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills for Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters. In that course, you will make a fire and cook your meals and sharpen your knife, etc.

[kittle]

orennoah,

 

In our district, the Outdoor skills training was the same for Webelos, SM, ASM. I just came home from ours.

 

resqman,

 

To me, training is like school. The teachers (instructors) don't need to give us all the answers. Instead they are there to give us the base and explain how to build from there. If they were going to give us all the information of each subject, we would have to go to a different training session each week. Most people would not be able or willing to do that.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

resqman, did you fill out an evaluation sheet at the end of your training? Did you let the trainers know of your concerns?

 

These outdoor trainings are standardized by National. Each has their syllabus that should be followed by the trainers. Kittle - your District is doing their Webelos Leaders a disservice by combining two entirely different trainings (or completely dumping Webelos Leader Outdoor).

 

Trainings can not last for 3-4 days straight. It is just not possible. The all day Saturday training you attended was probably a Pow Wow. The organizers have about 8 hours to get training to usually around 100 Scouters. There are no funds to do this more than once each year, so they have to do the best they can. These are not meant to be in-depth trainings. These are "ENHANCEMENTS". They provide you with ideas, some hands on practice, handouts with more ideas & references where YOU can go to find out more.

 

The problem BSA faces with Outdoor training, is that they have to accommodate people with a variety of skills. You will have folks who have never even lit a pilot light on a stove or looked at a tent in a store all the way to folks who backpack in the back country every chance they get. As a result the trainings aim for the middle of the road group who probably have a bit of experience with the outdoors, but need to be taught the BSA way of doing things. You need to ask questions at your trainings. The trainers will do their best to give you as much info as they can, but they are also trying to follow the syllabus & time-line so you can get out of there at least close to on time. They might be willing to spend an extra 2 hours going over extra stuff, but I doubt that all of the attendees would be very happy.

 

As to learning to build a fire without the use of matches, you need to learn how to get the fire going, to not burn the camp down in the process & keep the boys safe before you try anything fancy.

 

[bbng]

Our district goes far more indepth on topics of interest to both Cub Scouters and Scouters during the monthly roundtables. Particularly on the Cub Scout side, this is proving to be quite successful, for it is common for adults attending to training to want more indepth discussion and how-tos after completing their initial trainings.

[fgoodwin]

ScoutNut, what you say about IOLS and WLOT being two completely different courses used to be true -- that is no longer the case with the rewrite of Webelos Leader Oudoor Training (WLOT) into Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (OLSWL).

 

The "old" WLOT *was* designed to be run completely separately from the old SMF or the (relatively) new IOLS. However, the "new" WLOT (now called OLSWL) is *designed* to be run parallel to and for some sessions, in conjunction with, IOLS.

 

Our Council ran its first OLSWL a month ago and did it according to the syllabus, i.e., in conjunction with IOLS. I'm told it was a disaster. I believe our next course will follow the syllabus but it will be conducted independently of IOLS.

 

In any event, the real point is: whether IOLS, WLOT, or OLSWL, in all the courses, you get only an overview. I taught IOLS two weeks ago and we didn't even get to show attendees how to light a Coleman lantern, because it isn't in the syllabus.

 

I'm afraid if attendees are looking for actual hands-on, they will most likely have to get it in their own units when they go camping.

 

There simply isn't time in the syllabus, given the number of topics that must be covered in such a limited time, to do any one topic justice, much less time to include things that arent't even in the syllabus (e.g., pitching a tent isn't demonstrated).

[Its Me]

 

I know you trainers are just following the syllabus but I can I read a book on how to light a camp fire, set up a rain tarp or pick a backpacking stove. So if you are going ask for my physical presence for an 8 hour outdoor event you "should" make it as hands on as possible.

 

Don't spend 10 minutes on why you prefer wood matches and how you like to keep them in a water proof conatiner. Just pull it out of your pocket and, if I have one I won't think twice, if I don't, I will ask.

 

 

 

[resqman]

I did not intentionally indicate my comfort level in the material in my original post. I am an Eagle scout who had the opportuntity to experience Philmont and Seabase. I was Order of the Arrow and multi year BSA camp counsler. I started as a Cub, through Webelos, Boy Scouting and Explorers(Venturing). Over the years since I was a boy I have followed outdoor skills and have studied a variety of sources in a search for new methods and techniques. I have been a member of a SAR team as well as technical rescue team (High/Low Rope Rescue, Confined Space, Trench, Building Collapse, Hazardous Materials, and Swiftwater rescue) for over a decade. I was an active volunteer Firefighter and EMT in two states. I regularly collect natural materials and practice matchless firestarting as a hobby. My family practices dutch oven cooking in the backyard just for kicks. My sister visited with her kids from 3 states away for a weekend where I presented her with a Patrol box I made for her Girl Scout troop and all the cousins made ice cream in ziplock bags in the backyard.

 

I attended the training to make sure I was spouting the correct current BSA mantra to my boys. I was looking for tips to make the material more interesting to the the boys. I was attending the training to ensure that my Pack would be able to meet the training requirement for quality unit and I would be able to qualify for a knot. I publized the training within my unit, arranged carpooling, and was able to entice 4 other leaders to give up a 16 hour day to complete the training.

 

The instructors did a marvelous job of presenting the material in the time alloted. They took a 2 day course and compacted it into a 12 hour day, included 2 meals and a campfire while covering all 20 of the Webelos activity pins. They presented as much material as they could within the time constraint.

 

The other training was also presented in an excellent manner by those instructors GIVEN THE TIME CONSTRAINT of 5 hours. In both cases the instructors presented as much information as possible within the VERY limited time alloted to them for the topics. Kudos to the instructors for all their efforts before and during class time.

 

My complaint is that the TIME alloted to each topic is so short that every training is only a brief overview. While parents, BSA, and the community at large expect the leaders to be shinning examples of knowledge and leadership, the training that is so often suggested as the cure to all that lacks in BSA is cursory at best.

 

I see that classes I have been attending as a good introductory training for those unfamiliar the material. They also serve to standardize the BSA message and delivery to the boys. The general thoughts on the ride home from training amongst a group of leaders with either years of outdoor experience and/or years of BSA leadership experience was we were all left wanting for more.

 

Maybe the inital classes are what I have been experiencing, introductions to topics. What I would like is a series of additional classes that are offered as 200, 300, or 400 levels of classes in a specific topic. Something for those who have a desire to expand their outdoor cooking beyond a foil dinner. Not a Woodbadge leadership class but a skills oriented class. Merit Badge Counsler Bacholors, Masters, or PHD type classes. I would even welcome an Associate in topics.

 

I know growing up in scouts that newbies were taught by older scouts who learned it at the feet of older scouts. I was fortunate to have leaders who made the time to bring outdoor skills challenges to our attention. The younger ones marveled at the older boys who had only learned it last week from an adult who had read about it in a book the week before. Each showing their mastery of a skill to the uninitated. Each learning by teaching to another. I yearn for easier ways, more interesting ways, more enticing ways to teach often mundane tasks like knot tieing to the boys.

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

As I said, it is just to impractical to make every single, individual course into a 2-3 day course. Besides the money issue, you would never get enough people to sign up to make it worth doing. There are some out there like you, who are experienced & would love extended, in-depth courses. However, the vast majority complain about giving up 1-2 hours for Roundtable & blanch at the thought of an 8 hour training. They are NOT going to give up 3 days of their time for in-depth training.

 

Have you considered attending the Philmont Training Center in the summer? Contact your council about details of the courses & how you can get invited to attend.

 

BTW - You can even bring your entire family with you!

 

 

[John-in-KC]

This is a two edged sword.

 

On one hand, with a few years of fieldcraft from both Scouting and Uncle under my belt, I found the outdoor leader trainings I've attended to be "pro forma" or check-a-block.

 

On a different hand, I recognize there is only so much that can be done in a weekend. Even so, there are a lot of great "trainers" who don't know squat about the skills they are teaching.

 

Sooo... as a Roundtable staffer, I'm always looking for technical points of view we can bring in ...

 

In spite of everything, we find our annual critique sheets asking for more equipment and skills classes at RT, but we never have more than 5-7 folks sign in ... and the folks we get to train are GOOD ... both technically and as people persons.

 

It's a problem we're going to face more in the future as the Greatest Generation passes on, and fewer of us were raised with the outdoors as part of our lives!

 

My thoughts. Others will have different. That's ok.

 

[SeattlePioneer]

The comments about the depth of training commonly offered by Scouts is interesting.

 

I recently attended the district ALOST outdoor skills training for adults Boy Scout/Venturing leaders and had a similar experience.

 

The map and compass training went over all the skills through first class in an hour. For me, it was an interesting review, especially since it was taught by an engineer with an professional competence in the subject.

 

But for a lot of people, I'm sure much went over their heads ---too much presented to be really able to learn much.

 

Then we did a nature study segment and the show was on the other foot. An expert Boy Scout took us on a hike and identified scores of different kinds of vegetation, with detailed explanations of each type ---- that went 'way over my head, and I learned very little.

 

In my experience, most Scout training is quite good. But it's not design to make experts out of beginners. The best approach is to offer a basic introduction to a subject to people who are new to that subject. When people are through with the training, they should expect to do more reading and practice if they expect to develope real competence with the subject.

 

Isn't that the kind of training we offer most Boy Scouts for advancement? The boy who gets signed off on doing two half hitches will forget that skill unless he uses it and teaches it to other Scouts.

 

IF people would carefully read the literature available, much Scout leader training would not be necessary. But most people need a teacher to help lead them through complicated material, and there is "local knowledge" about how to apply general ideas that is also a part of such training.

 

I took the Cub Scout Baloo training on how to do Cub Scout camping last spring. Despite the fact that I have loads of camping experience, it was very valuable in learning how Scout rules apply to Cub Scout camping, pointers about how to adapt general camping practices to young boys, and ideas about local resouces that could be tapped to help with Pack overnights. So it was valuable, especially since we were just gearing up for our Pack overnight at the time.

 

So I don't expect most Scout leader traininbg to make me an expert. I am happy if it provides me with the fundamentals I need to plan a good a safe program which will allow me to learn a lot more through experience.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer